[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And also, for what it's worth, you have to spend a minor action to take aim to use the imaging scope, AND that take aim doesn't give any bonuses other what what the scope's benefit is.

Not everyone is going to have the action economy to throw a take aim before the shot.  Particularly if they're cashing in their minors for a 2nd major.

[Xenon]

Game mechanic wise: If you are using a sniper rifle you will have so much AR at long and extreme range that you don't need the scope to deny your target a tactical advantage from his DR.

Real life: Not using a scope (and just use open sights) is hard beyond 100 meters. Very difficult to hit anything pass 200 meters... And at 500+ meters you can't even see what you are aiming at. Taking a shot at Far without an Imaging Scope should probably give you penalty when firing. Taking a shot at Extreme should probably not even be allowed at all except if you Take Aim with an Imaging Scope.


Game Mechanic wise: Vision Magnification give +AR and stack with Imaging Scope

Real life: Scope is using magnification. It doesn't really work to look at a scope with another scope. A scope is really no compatible with vision magnification. Vision Magnification and Imaging Scope should give you the same status effect and they should not be compatible.


Game mechanics wise: Sniper rifles (as well as Auto Cannons, LMGs and Assault Rifles etc) have a really low AR at Melee Range. If you Take Aim at melee range then your low AR at melee range does not matter.

Real Life: It is difficult to use scope closer than 50 meters, at least on moving objects (but possible if you shoot with both eyes open at the same time). At 20 meters there is really no benefit at all at trying to use a scope (it is only in the way). At 0-3 meters (Close) it is for sure impossible to use a scope. Take Aim with a Scope should only be useful at Medium, Far and Extreme range.



See my post on Reddit for details:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/cpiw81/6e_errata_core_book_gathering/ewyq3rj/

[Typhus]

Not everyone is going to have the action economy to throw a take aim before the shot.  Particularly if they're cashing in their minors for a 2nd major.

I worry that you might be missing the point that the only argument that exists for armor mattering in this game is now negated by a 350 nuyen scope.  Hopefully I am wrong about that.  Pretty sure only needing to make a Minor Action spend to acquire it is not an offset either.

But hey.  Convince me.  I actually want to be wrong here.

Walk me through how this could have made sense from a design stand point to create an item the negates thousands of nuyen and essence loss for the price of a Minor Action?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm not missing the point... I'm more focused on armor being primarily useful at denying edge rather than generating it. And scopes don't stop armor from denying edge gain.

Anyway scopes are in my view besides the point.. even if scopes didn't exist, it'd still be of dubious value to build a character for generating edge when being shot at. You'd need to be so one dimensional to pull it off that your ability to contribute in many runs is dubious.

[KatoHearts]

The action economy doesn't really matter. You only need to take aim with the scope once. So long as you use an attack action, or I guess take aim again, every turn the bonuses carry over to the next.

[FastJack]

Why not walk us through how much McCheeselord needs one more point of Edge to avoid being shot when he can declare a Dodge minor action and spend his 4 edge to add his Edge to the test and make 6's explode. So the ganger with an image scope, Firearms 2 + Agility 2 has the upper hand?

McCheeselord has 7 Dice Dodging, 11 with Edge. With an imaging scope, he doesn't really need to worry much about damage until, let's say Professional Rating 7 NPCs (Red Samurai with Firearms 7 + Agility 8 ) for to really get some damage through. Now, with an extra edge where they weren't using a scope, you'd be able to spend the 5 Edge to create a Special Effect.

Now I know there's a lot of different ways to play this out. They could also fire full auto with the scope, dropping their AR -6 to get more damage and more hits. So could the runner. In the above example, the Red samurai has 4 minor actions to use, so he could do a bunch of things other than just take aim. But with your McCheeselord build, especially with the Damage Compensators and such, it's going to take a lot to bring you down, scope or no scope.

[Typhus]

Anyway scopes are in my view besides the point.. even if scopes didn't exist, it'd still be of dubious value to build a character for generating edge when being shot at. You'd need to be so one dimensional to pull it off that your ability to contribute in many runs is dubious.

Well, with armor also being of dubious value, I suppose you have a fair point there. High agility is far more useful and versatile.  More attack dice and more dodge dice > soak dice. 

[Typhus]

Why not walk us through how much McCheeselord needs one more point of Edge to avoid being shot when he can declare a Dodge minor action and spend his 4 edge to add his Edge to the test and make 6's explode.

Saving it for my Panther Punch to better one shot the jerk that shot me?  Then I get a 5 point spend on my punch.

No seriously though, Dodging > Soaking.  Soaking sucks for a lot of reasons.  Good example for sure.

[MercilessMing]

Cyberlimbs... hmm.  Well, if money is no object, and the only rating limit is capacity, then a fully cyber replaced character can get up to +84 DR!  Half of that is in the legs, so even a starting character could afford +40 DR on the limbs alone.

[FastJack]

Cyberlimbs... hmm.  Well, if money is no object, and the only rating limit is capacity, then a fully cyber replaced character can get up to +84 DR!  Half of that is in the legs, so even a starting character could afford +40 DR on the limbs alone.

Sure, let me just get the street doc on the line...

"Yeah, Boffo, I got a client here for ya! He wants a torso with Armor 10, two arms with Armor 15, and two legs with armor 20. Oh, and a helmet, if ya got one. Uh huh... Yeah... Really? Well, okay then."

Sorry, omae. It seems that the availability of those kind of armor attributes is way beyond even the most gamma cyber surgeons. Y'know, since the most rare items are Availability 9, and you're asking for attributes with availability equal to their ratings.

Oh, and if you did find them with the availability, it would be 5.5 essence and 480,000¥.

[Typhus]

Ah, but I bought them at the chargen shop where availability is irrelevant unless an item is specifically illegal.  Old man chargen is one whacky fella.

[FastJack]

Ah, but I bought them at the chargen shop where availability is irrelevant unless an item is specifically illegal.  Old man chargen is one whacky fella.

Loophole found! You've earned an achievement award!

[Xenon]

Depending on your reading you are capped at +4 armor per limb.



Edit.

Just realized that Imaging Scope use the general rules for Vision Magnification (+2 AR at medium, far and extreme range) in addition to Imaging Scope specific rules (deny target from gaining edge based on DR, must be used with Take Aim action).

p. 260 Imaging Scope
The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with...The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use. When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.

p. 275 Vision Magnification
Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the...

I think that the only change needed here is that you cannot take aim with an imaging scope at close or near distance categories.

[Finstersang]

Depending on your reading you are capped at +4 armor per limb.



Edit.

Just realized that Imaging Scope use the general rules for Vision Magnification (+2 AR at medium, far and extreme range) in addition to Imaging Scope specific rules (deny target from gaining edge based on DR, must be used with Take Aim action).

p. 260 Imaging Scope
The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with...The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use. When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.

p. 275 Vision Magnification
Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the...

I think that the only change needed here is that you cannot take aim with an imaging scope at close or near distance categories.

Good spot, but I somehow doubt that this is intentional. There is no page reference from the Imaging Scope to Vision magnification and vice-versa. Given that we are looking at a CGL product, it´s probably yet another case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. Also, that (additional?) effect of the Scope still doesn´t fit the purpose. I suspect that it was originally conceived under the premise that Sniper Rifles would have lower Attack ratings on extreme ranges. They don´t, so now the effect is only usefull for snipers when "sniping" from 3 Meters afar or when the target is extremely tanky   

So why not throw that whole kibosh (along with APDS Ammo, because holy shit what were they thinking?!) in the errata/houserule machine and make something out of it that at least remotely resembles the actual purpose of these items?

A humble suggestion:

• Vision Magnification: When used with the Take Aim Action, increase the AP on Medium, Long and Extreme Ranges by 2 in addition to any other effects of the Take Aim Action.
• Imaging Scope: The same as Vision Magnification, plus the wireless effect (sharing feeds with team members)
• APDS Ammo: No reduction of the Damage Code, no change to AR. New Effect: Your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating. (So basically, the previous effect of the Imaging Scope)

Apart from that:
Typhus, I don´t really think that your Cheeselord is that cheesy, maybe apart from the Cyberlimb Armor.  It would still be a good idea to put a reasonable cap on Cyberlimb armor, but its not devastatingly, game-breakingly cheesy that there isn´t one. At least not compared to 5th Edition, when Cyberlimb Armor contributed to massive soak pools.

Even when no Edge-Denying gear is used against you (Like the imagining scope, although that effect doesn´t really fit the purpose...  ), you can get a maximum of 2 Edge per round because something something balancing. In fact, it´s these kind of builds why I don´t like that Limit, because it basically means that a huge portion of the "cheesy" bonus armor mechanically disappears once you reach that limit and continue to recieve fire.