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[6WE] Vehicle Stats and Combat

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dezmont

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« Reply #15 on: <08-20-19/0903:13> »
If a Go Ganger can't do stunts that is either a failed statline for the gogangers or the stunts are too hard.

In this case it is the later. Driving dangerously is ridiculously hard and that is a massive design flaw because it removes all meaning from low driving investments. Driving skill at 2 or 3 should mean something different than at 0, but it doesn't. It indicates strongly that the skill rolls were assigned thoughtlessly because the 'average' user of the skill can't exist.

This is a consistent problem in SR, because understandably the game about superhumans biases towards superhuman results of 3-4 hits consistently in bad situations without assistance, while the average experienced normal person can only consistently get 1 hit, but that consistent 1 hit should really strive to mean something. A lot of 'problem' areas of the game (Like the matrix) have been problem areas because the scale instantly forces you to be superhuman, while a lot of areas of the game that function really well, like face rolls, actually do have plenty of cases where just being an experienced person with the skill (by SR standards, a dabbler) means something.

Like a charisma 4 skill 2 street samurai is going to beat the average person rolling 2 dice to resist their con almost all the time on simple cons, even though they can't weave elaborate lies on people trained to handle con artists by having the con skill themselves like a face can. With the way vehicle handling works this... can't happen, which has bad effects for both the dabbler PC and NPCs, and the actual expert, because Go gangers are so bad at vehicle tests you really can't... have chase combat in 6e without superhuman drivers, which is kinda rough because 6e was pushing chase combat as a more normal thing to happen in order to make being a rigger more relevant. But instead of lowering the barrier to chases (Which is how you would make chases more common) they are still really really high, to the point it is akin to a matrix deep-dive where as a GM I wouldn't include them because the majority of my PCs would have literally nothing to do besides shoot out windows because my samurai with their cool motorcycle and 1-2 ranks in driving legitimately can't participate as an individual.

I would not be surprised if the errata process nuked driving difficulty tests to help give room for higher end 'power' stunts akin to what Rigger 5 had, and make doing basic stunts like... possible for a PC to be expected to do.
« Last Edit: <08-20-19/0914:12> by dezmont »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #16 on: <08-20-19/1049:32> »
Imo a lot of it comes down to the core mechanic of 5 being the target number. 5 requires on average 3 dice for a hit pushing needed target numbers for a single threshold change up significantly and decreasing the value of a skill point increase. TN4 would swing it to 2 dice needed for a difference. Doesn’t seem like much 2 or 3 but as the pools grow it adds up quite a bit. Some thresholds which are supposed to be super humanly hard might need to go up but the ones in the normal range could stay the same as they are supposed to be hit by a relatively normal practitioner like a go ganger.

Hobbes

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« Reply #17 on: <08-20-19/1106:26> »
I'm going to take a stab that Control Rigs were going to modify Handling or Speed or Something so Riggers were mechanically meaningful.  It would be a fairly simple Errata to have VCRs lower a Handling test threshold by Rating or something similar. 

Non-Riggers will still crash every time, but heck with those guys.

dezmont

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« Reply #18 on: <08-20-19/1117:48> »
I'm going to take a stab that Control Rigs were going to modify Handling or Speed or Something so Riggers were mechanically meaningful.  It would be a fairly simple Errata to have VCRs lower a Handling test threshold by Rating or something similar. 

Non-Riggers will still crash every time, but heck with those guys.

You can't really say 'heck with those guys' because you need rigging focused content to be compelling enough for non-riggers for them to be down with it happening.'

If a vehicle combat is going to be a really bad time for 4/5ths of your table, as a GM you are not going to have vehicle combat. The fact that most basic vehicles are going to require 9 dice to do a basic stunt at a very low speed is kinda bonkers and indicates the way that handling was implemented was kinda a bad idea because the difference of 1 handling point in the current system is pretty massive. I mean the GMC Bulldog is flipping handling 5, meaning a rigger with 15 dice to drive the most iconic drone transport option in the game fails more often than not when trying to do anything complex in a vehicle chase.

And you could push up the threshold for what a stunt *is* but that isn't really better, because then having vehicle skills at all gets devalued because stunts don't happen enough.

I can't beat around the bush here: The vehicle rules are... really bad. It is kinda mystifying they had 'stunts' be this generic thing that has a TN based on your vehicle rather than importing the stunt system from R5 that makes vehicle stunts essentially vehicle called shots: Ways to really reward mastery without punishing middling abilities. Like I don't get why they didn't just make doing cool chase combat as a driver 'free' for everyone with vehicle tests being used as an advantage, rather than making it so you need to do them at rather high difficulty to participate. It is the equivalent of forcing everyone to get 3 hits on an athletics test to find their footing to engage in a running gunfight: all that does is ensure the majority of the table can't participate in a running fight and thus running fights won't happen.

Hobbes

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« Reply #19 on: <08-20-19/1131:28> »
Forgot the sarcasm font on "Heck with those guys".  Agreed, Piloting should not be a 15 dice minimum to bother with, a 6 or 7 dice pool should give you a chance to do something.  At the same time Vehicle Control Rigs need to have a mechanically meaningful benefit to represent the staggering investment required.

Honestly if I were to re-write the Priority table the "Magic/Resonance" column would be "Magic/Resonance/Rigging/Decking" and just build VCRs, RCCs, Cyberdecks and whatever right into the Priority table. 

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #20 on: <08-20-19/1152:06> »
Honestly if I were to re-write the Priority table the "Magic/Resonance" column would be "Magic/Resonance/Rigging/Decking" and just build VCRs, RCCs, Cyberdecks and whatever right into the Priority table.

An intriguing thought.

I'd only caution that it would kill Magic / Decking OR Rigging hybrids, as well as potentially Decker / Rigger hybrids.  This may be an acceptable trade in the end, it is just something to pay heed to.

It would also have the added effect of moving Shadowrun closer to a class-based system.  Again, this may be acceptable in the end.  It just isn't something that should be taken lightly.
« Last Edit: <08-20-19/1153:46> by Iron Serpent Prince »

dezmont

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« Reply #21 on: <08-20-19/1204:18> »
Making it a priority pick falls into the same trap that the current edition fell for: Price doesn't equal a role.

I would just reduce their price a lot, and the price of the cyberjack while we are at it. There is this weird philosophy that I think came about due to 4e's total annihilation of tech roles that you need to put a massive cost gate on the minimum equipment needed to do things to 'protect' the role, but in reality that issue came about not due to the low barrier of entry but the fact that tools existed that completely removed the utility of personally having skills in those fields: Agents, pilot programs, and autosofts.

Control rigs are essentially the rigger equivalent of muscle toner, with a few minor benefits (you get bonuses to stuns mainly. Some argue that it also gives hotsim initiative, but you don't need a control rig to get hotsim initiative piloting drones, it only gives a bonus doing so AND makes you take damage from being hit) but a lot of drawbacks (it is a LOT more expensive to get your drones and command consoles than... you know... a gun. Because drones ALSO need guns), and probably should be priced at that level, but instead they were shoved at a massive essence cost to help prevent people from just taking them to have them because they are worth their price.

Which, obviously, doesn't actually protect a role, it just makes the role bad, because the value of the 'ware in question is obviously not worth the price. Why take a control rig that costs massively more than the samurai's ware when the rig basically does the same thing the samurai does anyway?

Does that cost mean a hacker or any PC may take a rig cuz its REALLY worth it if vehicle combat is common? Probably. But it doesn't devalue the rigger role or mean it doesn't exist if hybridizing the role is possible. Most good roles in SR CAN be hybridized, and it indicates something is very wrong if the writers can't figure out a way to allow the role to be hybridized.

Like if a samurai takes tailored pheromones, one of the broadest skill boosting pieces of 'ware in the game, that is fine. A Face can take Toner and a reflex recorder to boot at 3 levels for less than a rig. But if someone takes a rig or a cyberdeck and hasn't built literally their entire PC around the concept, that apparently isn't ok, despite ALSO the fact that there is a perception these types of characters exclusively operating on the matrix is also bad. I don't see any problem with a samurai who likes driving to get a rating 2 control rig for 80k and .4 essence but apparently that just can't happen and it needs to be priced at 2 essence in order to ensure no one would ever take a control rig under any circumstances where they don't base their entire PC around it. And because basing your entire mundane PC around one thing in SR is like... objectively a bad thing, people just don't make people with control rigs, even if they want to use drones now. Drones themselves are extremely useful, control rigs are borderline worthless, which is why most optimized riggers in 5e don't have them despite obviously being riggers.

It really feels like we are just repeating mistakes at this point because no one sat down and thought "Ok. What should a role even be?" They are trying to force it via high buy ins but don't bother to make the high buy in worth anything. A 1 essence 100k cost per rating would make sense if a rating 3 control rig alone was enough to make your PC amazingly powerful, like 3 auto hits on defense tests and attack tests to make it the equivalent of 3 essence of samurai 'ware, or giving you an insane laundry list of utility functions like how 3 ess of 'ware would play in a face, but it doesn't. It, effectively, is just +3 to some skill rolls.

Nominally, hybridization without role erosion like 4e had is a good thing, it makes characters more distinct form each other, gives mundanes way more room to grow, and helps make the nominal advantage of being a mundane of versatility actually work. Also, it fits the lore better: SR historically had most experienced runners dabble in most aspects of the setting because it was a smart survival strategy: a lot of veteran samurai went out of their way to learn a few decking skills because they knew it would come in handy. That hasn't worked for 3 editions now, one because decking skills were worthless (4e) and two because it just isn't feasible to 'dabble' anymore. But like it used to be a half decent deck could run 50k, maybe 100k, which feels like a lot but this was also when priority A was a million nuyen and B was 400k so it was 100% possible to just get a deck and some programs and skills and have at it on your logic 4 samurai.

We went from low end decking options running you 1/20th of your resource budget to 1/4th, totally ignoring the fact that logic and intuition boosters were insanely critical for 5e's hacking meaning you really were looking at 100% of your resources to even get started. Despite the matrix being more useful overall due to wireless, this change pretty much single handedly has forced deckers to be a shadow of a role, because almost nothing in SR is worth 1/4th your resources to get the bare minimum level of access. Maybe if you were effectively casting spells (It isn't an accident only mages really work with this system) but not to flick lightswitches...
« Last Edit: <08-20-19/1211:46> by dezmont »

Typhus

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« Reply #22 on: <08-20-19/1208:47> »
Quote
Driving skill at 2 or 3 should mean something different than at 0, but it doesn't.

Have you seen the suggestions for Critical Glitches on driving attempts?  Having low skills means more likelihood of a critical glitch which means more chance of suddenly having a grenade where your driver seat used to be, or some other such horrible, character-scarring problem just for one bad dice roll.

I have issues with that chart.  But that's OT for this thread.  Point being, I agree.  The rigging rules have issues.

dezmont

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« Reply #23 on: <08-20-19/1218:47> »
Quote
Driving skill at 2 or 3 should mean something different than at 0, but it doesn't.

Have you seen the suggestions for Critical Glitches on driving attempts?  Having low skills means more likelihood of a critical glitch which means more chance of suddenly having a grenade where your driver seat used to be, or some other such horrible, character-scarring problem just for one bad dice roll.

I have issues with that chart.  But that's OT for this thread.  Point being, I agree.  The rigging rules have issues.

The odds and consiquences of falure don't meaningfully scale. A near 100% rate of failure for something where a failure already likely is lethal means that I would never take the test. If you told me that I have a 1/100 chance of suffering some extra consiquence on the roll as opposed to most people having a 1/9 roughly, I wouldn't be more likely to take that test. It is still bad enough I would never take it. I already have an 80% chance to crash my vehicle. It is already bad enough that in any scenario I am asked to do a stunt I would just park and take my chances on foot. Which is kinda ridiculous, you want the system to encourage your PCs to do cool things that make sense in universe but a smart samurai would NEVER engage in a chase to try to thin the herd before the fight starts, they would park RIGHT AWAY even if facing down 30 Red Samurai just because the only thing driving can do is hurt them.

The outcome is identical: I don't make vehicle tests under any circumstance. It is equivalent to the difference between 2 dice to hack and 5 in SR5e: It doesn't mean anything because there is no scenario I would ever make that roll. Yeah, the 2 dice would crit glitch way more, but I will effectively crit glitch 0% of the time anyway because I never roll.

This idea of making it so there aren't real gates for specialized areas of gameplay isn't exactly a novel concept. Star Wars has solved it for ages. Basically it is assumed everyone can handle themselves flying and mostly specialized pilots are REALLY REALLY GOOD while non-specialists not even proficient in spaceship weapons can hit most basic enemy ships most of the time. Even the stuff where a specialized pilot weaponizes their piloting skill vs a total scrub doesn't end in a way that makes the scrub crash or die, the most you can do is make it so the scrub can't run away or shoot other people, which creates an interesting scenario where your player aces get to fly in and rescue their buddy from a dogfight.

And it works really well. I have had an ace pilot feel like an amazing badass while my social jedi player with no piloting or proficiency gets to still feel cool saving NPC scrub clone pilots from certain death just by virtue of PC levels being useful in space. But despite the scrub being still useful everyone can clearly tell that the pilot PC is shining and getting so much work done. This idea of beating people out of specialized content is *so* 2000's.
« Last Edit: <08-20-19/1226:06> by dezmont »

Typhus

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« Reply #24 on: <08-20-19/1545:04> »
The threshold guidelines also slate a threshold of 2 as things only slightly harder than walking or talking.  Scrubs (2 stat, 2 skill, ie most NPCs in the book) are out of options when they hit a 3, which is "average".  Maybe there's some other way that is supposed to be read though?


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: <08-20-19/1550:06> »
Forgot the sarcasm font on "Heck with those guys".  Agreed, Piloting should not be a 15 dice minimum to bother with, a 6 or 7 dice pool should give you a chance to do something.  At the same time Vehicle Control Rigs need to have a mechanically meaningful benefit to represent the staggering investment required.

Honestly if I were to re-write the Priority table the "Magic/Resonance" column would be "Magic/Resonance/Rigging/Decking" and just build VCRs, RCCs, Cyberdecks and whatever right into the Priority table.
Mirage and 7 dice means almost 3/4 chance, and that's without using Edge. And you have approx 3/7 without Edge with the Scorpion, the Jackrabbit and the Shin-hyung. I'd consider that a chance at doing something.

Edit: As for a simple stunt at high speed: 7 dice, Mirage, 100 m/ct = 120 km/h = -3, stunt not at level of a hairpin turn but still tricky so say -1 threshold, 2-1 = 1 with 4 dice, 80% chance.
« Last Edit: <08-20-19/1601:39> by Michael Chandra »
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #26 on: <08-20-19/1639:41> »
Well, this has been an entertaining read. I haven't picked  up the 6e CRB and I don't intend to, so before I share any thoughts on this let me just make sure I've got all these details right:
  • To do any stunt in a chase or other vehicle scene, you need to roll a number of hits equal to your vehicle's Handling score, with the TN being adjusted up or down for more difficult or simpler stunts respectively.
  • Handling ranges from 2 for particularly nimble motorcycles to 5 for the average truck or van.
  • You take a penalty to your dicepool based on your speed; how big a penalty for any given speed depends on the vehicle's speed interval.
  • Control rigs no longer reduce your TN, nor do they provide any powerful bonus to compensate. No, edge generation is not a powerful bonus.
  • 2 is now the "average" in a stat for humans, as opposed to 3 in previous editions.
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Typhus

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« Reply #27 on: <08-20-19/1641:50> »
That's my working understanding too.

Typhus

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« Reply #28 on: <08-20-19/1652:53> »
Putting all that together, let's say the getaway driver (a rigger) decides to try to force a crash test on his opponent.  He makes (crazy maneuver), just barely executes, but only due to a combination of high skill and stats enough to soak the modifier, and maybe an edge spend.  Pursuers are goons with average stats.  They roll against similar threshold and all fail due to having 4 dice on average, losing X for their speed.  Chase is over in one test.  The rigger being a rigger is not relevant to the equation, since the rig is not actively helping them drive. Unless the Edge spend is a requirement to pre-Edge the die roll, Edge could be irrelevant too.  Any character with an Edge score could replicate this effect, at least on the first turn.  If the goons make the maneuver somehow, then the driver may need to repeat this effort, which is what allows a rigger to excel.  They recharge the Edge effect each turn, where a Samurai must continue to work out other methods of Edge generation in order to executive similar edge maneuvers.  Rigger are only getting advantages on sustained chases, or chases against potent enough enemies who don't wipe out on the first hard corner.

Did I miss anything?

Hephaestus

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« Reply #29 on: <08-20-19/2039:23> »
Did I miss anything?

Nope, sounds about right.

If the edge gains are per action (two on their own activation, and then one per every opposed test against them), then they will be a font of edge during a chase, to the point that they can just reshape the world around them (5 Edge Action: Create Special Effect) to clear their chase aggressors/targets. Its like playing Watchdogs with dice!

But at the same time, without lowering thresholds, the Rigger still has a solid chance of crashing in the same chase once they get over 3 speed thresholds (which is NOT hard to do in anything less nimble than a performance vehicle).