[marfish]

Comparing with other metatype, the advantage for picking human is too small. So if not for "I want to be a human", why would I pick it?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

There's a lively discussion on this very topic over in another thread.

Granted, it's gone off the rails into tangent-ville in the last couple days, but you'll find viewpoints in support and in opposition to the perspective that there's no reason to pick human as a character's race.

[Shinobi Killfist]

To sum up unless you have a build for sure someone with either resonance or magic and you want a 7 edge there is no reason to. At e and d race the penalty for playing human is fairy minor assuming you want a okay edge.

 So yes humans are the worst to play mechanically and obviously so.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Or you could choose to not look at "having higher Edge than the metahuman at the same priority selection" as not being a downside at all.


Sure, sure.  One could make an elf with no SAPs in Agility or Charisma at all and put everything into Edge, just like humans "have to".  What you've got is the same thing mechanically as a human, save the low light vision which 1) costs so little in resources to duplicate it's virtually a rounding error and 2) is lost anyway if the character is getting cybereyes.

OTOH being human has real roleplaying advantages. Pointy-ears get penalties besides what's in the dice pool numbers, chummer...

What about an ork, you say? Exact same thing... orks save a couple hundred nuyen in not having to buy low light (again, unless they get cybereyes) but they also get 4 free karma's worth of built tough.  4 Karma is not NO advantage, but it's certainly no game breaking advantage, either.  If weighed against an ongoing campaign 4 karma out of potentially hundreds of TKE is another rounding error... at a cost of potentially dying of old age rather than violence before the campaign ends...

And Dwarves/Trolls? Chummer.. check out the lifestyle costs. The Sixth World is literally built for humans.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So I was right as nothing you said contradicted my statement.

D and e race you can’t max edge so your 7 cap does not matter. Other races can put it all into edge as well.

So your advantage is nothing.

Their advantage is higher maxes, natural vision enhancements(only valuable to mages otherwise it’s small nuyen) and more options of where to put your special attributes. Increased maxes is important enough it’s a 12 point quality that can only be taken once and for elf in particular it’s in pretty key stats to many archetypes.  Other races well everyone can use more soak dice.

Also due to how karma advancement works maxing your racial stat if it’s a stat that helps your build at char gen is pretty big. It saves a lot of karma.

 In the likely to be errataed perks. Metas get more out of impaired attribute negative quality. A troll can get 56 points in strength by dunking a obvious dump stat. A human can only get 32 karma. 24 karma difference is about 4 runs.

C and b you can go to 7 edge but unless you are mage/technomancer some of those point las get lost. So if a 7 edge is important to your build it’s good but if 6 or lower again other can match it and have the above advantages.

a same as b/c but some points are wasted.

C and above you are more and more likely to hit a edge that fits your build and have points left over to boost other stats.

So, no mechanical reason to go human unless your goal is 7 edge.

I wish they had just ditched this column entirely and made race just a choice and then done their best to balance the races. Or give humans something more than + 1 edge at least. It’s so obvious they are lacking. Like let humans take the quality that boosts a attribute max multiple times but at most 2 in one stat and 2 different stats and give them 15 extra karma or 2 more qualities or net 40 etc.

[Hobbes]

String of Human builds then, build me these so much better Metas

Build #1 Human Hermetic Mage

Metatype   D   Human 4
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   B   6 Spells 3 Magic
Resources   E   8000 (+16,000 from 8 Karma, total 24,000)

   
S   2
A   5
R   5
B   3
I   5
L   6
C   2  (10 Karma for +1)
W   5

Edge     2
Magic  6
Essence 6

Skill     Rating    Specializations   Karma
Stealth   4   Sneaking              5
Influence   1   Negotiations    10
Astral   5   Assensing            5
Sorcery   5   Combat            5
Conjuring   6   Air                    5
Con           1   Fast talk            10

Qualities
Focused Concentration 3
Spirit Affinity Air
Impaired Cha 3
Analytical Mind
Impaired Str 3
SINner

**************************************************

Build #2, literally the Decker build I posted in another thread, simply changed Ork to Human because it didn't matter what Metatype was chosen for this one. 

Metatype   D   4 - Ork  *poof*  Now it's a Human!
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   E   Mundane
Resources   B   275,000

S      2     
A      5   (9)
R      3   (5)
B      3     
I      5     
L      6   (9)
C      5     
W      3     

Magic 0
Essence 1.06
Edge 5

Skills:
Stealth (Sneak) 1
Con (Fast Talk) 1
Athletics (Climbing) 1
Cracking (Hacking) 6
Electronics (Matrix Perception) 5
Firearms (Automatics) 5
Engineering   4
Perception   (Visual) 1
Biotech   1
Influence   1

Qualities
In Debit
Alergy Gold (Rare, Moderate)
Analytical mind
Impared Str 2

Augment   Rating
Used Wired Reflexes   2
Used Muscle Toner   4
Used Cerebral Boosters   3
Used Cyber Jack   1
Data Jack   

Gear:
Erika Cyberdeck   
52,5000 Nuyen.

Karma spent:
Stealth   5
Con      5
Athletics   5   
Perception   5
Biotech   5
Influence   5
Specializations     
Automatics   5
Fast talk      5
Hacking      5
Matrix Perception   5
Visual      5
Climbing      5
Sneaking      5
Nuyen       2
Bonus Karma from Qualities      -17

Total 50

****************************************************************************

Build #3   Human Face, yes an Elf is 2 dice better, been that way for a few editions now.  We've managed to cope so far.

Metatype   D   Human 4
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   E   No
Resources   B   275000 (+40,000 from 20 Karma)

S   1  (4)
A   5   (
R   5  (7)
B   4   
I   5   
L   3   
C   6   
W   3   
Total   24   
Essence 0.75      
Edge   5      
Magic 0

Skill      Rank   Specializations   Karma
Stealth      1        Sneak                     10
Perception      1         Visual                     10
Athletics      4      
Firearms      5          Pistol                       5
Con              5         Fastalk              5
Influence      6      Negotiation               5
Engineering   1       Lockpicking               10
pilot           1                                   5
            

Qualities
Impaired Str 4       -32
First Impression      12

89,000 Nuyen left to spend, plenty of tweaks left to be made here.

*******************************************

Build #4 Human Street Samurai - Dual Wielding Remington Roomsweepers for the lulz. 

Archetype   Street Samurai   
      
Priority      
A   Attributes   24
B   Resources   275000  (43,700 left after Augmentations)
C   Skills   20
D   Metatype   Human (4)
E   Magic   None

Attribute   Value   Augmented Value   Karma Spent
Strength      5                   9   
Agility      6                  10   
Reaction      5                    8   
Body      5      
Intuition      5      
Logic      2                                               10
Charisma      2      
Willpower      3      
Edge   5      
Essence   0.15      
Magic   0      
Initiative   4d6+13      
Major Actions   1      
Minor Actions   5      

Skill                 Rating   Specialization   Karma Spent
Close Combat   5             Unarmed           5
Stealth           1               Sneak           10
Perception           4               Visual            5
Athletics           5              Archery            5
Engineering   1                               5
Con                   1                Acting           10
Influence           1              Etiquette        10
Outdoors           1                               5
Firearms           6              Shotgun            5
      
Qualities      
Analytical Mind      
Ambidexterity      
Dermal Deposits      
Impaired Logic 3      
Impaired Charisma 3
First Impression      
      
Augmentations      Rating
Bone Density Alpha      4
Muscle Replacement Used      4
Synap Used      3
Smartgun Alpha      
      
      
Knowledge skills      
Small Unit Tactics      
Parazoology      

Karma Spent on Skills      60
Karma spent on Attributes      10
Bonus Karma from Qualities (net)      20
Karma Spent on Nuyen      0
Net Karma Spent      50

[Hobbes]

Those all seem more than serviceable.  Changing to a different Metatype would let you shuffle Edge points into Racial Abilities, and not much else.  I don't think increasing the Metatype Priority on these builds to get more Racial Attribute points would result in any kind of amazing trade off either.  As it turns out 24 Attribute points tends to round out a Shadowrunner pretty well. 

And now I just realized I picked C twice on the mage... ah... rats..  off to Edit.

[Xenon]

Build #2 as Ork would probably not have worked since you would have two attributes at racial maximum (both charisma 5 and logic 6). But it works fine as human (and dwarf and elf).

[Shinobi Killfist]

Those all seem more than serviceable.  Changing to a different Metatype would let you shuffle Edge points into Racial Abilities, and not much else.  I don't think increasing the Metatype Priority on these builds to get more Racial Attribute points would result in any kind of amazing trade off either.  As it turns out 24 Attribute points tends to round out a Shadowrunner pretty well. 

And now I just realized I picked C twice on the mage... ah... rats..  off to Edit.

No one said it was the most broken thing ever, just that humans clearly have less advantages and there is pretty much no mechanical reason to play humans. Compared to how much you min max its not much of a mechanical issue, compared to how much 95% of the rest of the game world min maxes its more significant though still not massive. But its not non existent or tiny either, higher maxes help if you play to them they just do its stat+skill so if the stat is higher you are better off.  While they existed in previous editions they came with a bigger cost. You can make a serviceable human, but if you  make them anything else they will be human+ how big that+ is depends on how much you lean into the benefits they get it might be as small as just natural low light it might be that and +dice for every skill you roll or more damage when you punch.

[Xenon]

...just that humans clearly have less advantages and there is pretty much no mechanical reason to play humans.

I am not saying you are wrong, but there are some drawbacks of not playing one of the squishes like human or elf that you might want to consider before picking them;


Troll characters:

• Earn 9% less money (this is actually pretty huge)
• Cannot deal stun damage with unarmed attacks (except if they get killing hands or use grappling)
• Have lower agility potential (athletics, close combat, firearms, stealth, sprint)
• Have lower charisma potential (con, influence, shaman drain, mentor spirit, watcher minions, techno attack)

Dwarf characters:

• Have lower reaction potential (AR piloting / initiative, defense, surprise, unarmed AR)
• Pay 10% markup cost but only on items that need to be fitted for size (armor, clothes)

Ork characters:

• Have lower charisma potential (con, influence, shaman drain, mentor spirit, watcher minions, techno attack)

I would even go so far as saying that the only two game mechanical reasons why you should ever want to go Troll is if you:

• Intended to focus on Strength (for Unarmed / Archery)
• Intend to walk out of chargen with a body rating of 9 (because then Troll is the only option)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah they have penalties. The thing is you are building the character from scratch so it’s not hard to make your archetype match up with benefits while basically ignoring the negatives very few street sams need 6 charisma or 5 even. But they can all use more body.

And yeah you can build a mechanically effective human. They won’t be quite as optimized as a meta but they will be fine. I’ve built mechanically effective troll deckers in 5e they just weren’t as optimized as humans. That apparently was bad in 5e so why is it good or no big deal when humans are the less effective race.

Sure maybe not quite to the same playing against type degree as troll decker but smaller amounts in pretty much every role other than slightly more lucky at the start of the fight guy.

[Hobbes]

Sure maybe not quite to the same playing against type degree as troll decker but smaller amounts in pretty much every role other than slightly more lucky at the start of the fight guy.

The Anticipate Edge Boost is strong, and starting out a combat by removing several mooks or hammering the single biggest threat with several attacks before they act is much better than letting them get a turn or two in.  I suspect even Melee characters will want to take a hard look at it.  Embrace the 40k!   

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sure maybe not quite to the same playing against type degree as troll decker but smaller amounts in pretty much every role other than slightly more lucky at the start of the fight guy.

The Anticipate Edge Boost is strong, and starting out a combat by removing several mooks or hammering the single biggest threat with several attacks before they act is much better than letting them get a turn or two in.  I suspect even Melee characters will want to take a hard look at it.  Embrace the 40k!   

Which is snazzy. But again at least under priority irrelevant because every other meta can do the same but with added perks. It literally only pans out if you want a 7 edge and have magic or resonance as a attribute and took c or b human. And only if the difference between 7 edge and 6 is worth all the benefits metas get.

No one is asking for a massive change. Just a minor one like some bonus karma at the get go. Maybe they are net 30. Maybe they can take 7 or 8 qualities. Maybe can pick one stat that goes to 7 for free and put special points into that.

Currently outside some niche I need 7 edge build it’s always a better choice to go meta though sometimes the difference is very small.

[DigitalZombie]

I think my group is gonna use some atrribute minimums for meta races. Say your strength/body is 1-9? Then you need to put at least 3 ranks in those each.  This will most likely not affect elven characters, as they likely wanted some agility and charisma already- but the others cant leave strength at 1 anymore.

( to balance that part a bit, we will be looking into making strength stronger again)

[Hephaestus]

I think one of the most overlooked advantages of humans is that they are "normal" in the Shadowrun world. Metas are looked at as outcasts by most humans, and there has always been a lot of racial tension throughout the lore. Mechanically this could have been represented by blanket racial modifiers to social tests, or an "Agro" system in combat (geek the mage, shoot the big one).

But, the truth is most GMs tend to hand-wave that sort of thing to keep the game going (unless specifically going against people like Humanis), so metas just have a few mechanical advantages over the Normies.