[markelphoenix]

I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.

Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost.  However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating.  You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point.  It was on par with casters/conjurers.  I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years.  Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?

Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost.  They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me. 

I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either.  Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma.  With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up. 

Feel free to Change My Mind.  I lack some context.

I think why it started occurring is ware started to provide far far more than adept powers at char gen. It’s hilariously so in 6e. You can use all of your starting magic to get what is less than a 1/6th of what a street sam got. To boost your agility by 4 you’d need a rating 16 Qi focus. And that’s a mere.8 essence for street sam.


Edit to add what I really dislike about this is it really pushes adepts towards burnout and really just being street sams with some extras. It is imo damaging to the setting.

Yes...if you were using the Qi Foci for Increased Attribute, it would be rating 16....that wouldn't be a rational action for someone to take. More realistically, someone would use Qi Foci to grab the Adept Powers that were .25, .5, or 1 PP increments, requiring a Foci of Rating 1-4 and getting full benefit of that power, freeing up the Power Points from CharGen and Initiation to be put into higher cost Adept Powers.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.

Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost.  However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating.  You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point.  It was on par with casters/conjurers.  I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years.  Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?

Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost.  They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me. 

I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either.  Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma.  With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up. 

Feel free to Change My Mind.  I lack some context.

I think why it started occurring is ware started to provide far far more than adept powers at char gen. It’s hilariously so in 6e. You can use all of your starting magic to get what is less than a 1/6th of what a street sam got. To boost your agility by 4 you’d need a rating 16 Qi focus. And that’s a mere.8 essence for street sam.


Edit to add what I really dislike about this is it really pushes adepts towards burnout and really just being street sams with some extras. It is imo damaging to the setting.

Yes...if you were using the Qi Foci for Increased Attribute, it would be rating 16....that wouldn't be a rational action for someone to take. More realistically, someone would use Qi Foci to grab the Adept Powers that were .25, .5, or 1 PP increments, requiring a Foci of Rating 1-4 and getting full benefit of that power, freeing up the Power Points from CharGen and Initiation to be put into higher cost Adept Powers.

It has to come from somewhere. If you saved up enough to boost a attribute by 4 which is a totally normal action in a attribute+skill system especially when attributes are still clearly superior. So either you saved 4 magic worth by taking 16 force worth of multiple ki focuses or one really big ki focus. Depending on how background count works it’s hard to say which is the better choice. And even after 16 force worth of ki focus you still will be far far behind a street sam. Even after initiating a crap ton of times and boosting your magic so you can initiate more you will probably still be behind a street sam just on ware to powers. And the street sam has been bumping skills etc while you dropped a couple hundred karma just to catch up on the augmentation race. Without the initiation option you’d likely need close to a thousand karma to catch up in ware to a starting street sam.

Now a burn out is the best of both worlds. Setting concepts of magic and tech not mixing be damned.

[Xenon]

Getting attributes via chrome while getting stuff like heightened reflexes and spider sense from adept powers have been a Thing for quite some time now.

This is also true in SR6

Wired reflexes have the same essence cost as the improved reflexes power point cost, but essence is a limited resource while the source of power points, is not. Wired reflexes also cost roughly 100,000 nuyen per rating while improved reflexes cost roughly 8 karma and 12,000 nuyen per rating.



In SR6 it also seem as if physical adepts will get less punished for getting chrome (starting power points are based on unadjusted magic from magic or resonance, not adjusted magic from essence loss due to chrome - and post chargen physical adepts gain a free power point each time magic is increased but they don't seem to drop a power point each time magic is decreased from essence loss due to chrome).

This mean they could probably benefit from the best of both worlds. Getting stuff like attribute augmentations via chrome and stuff like reflex enhancements and spider sense via adept powers.

Since mystic adepts, on the other hand, have the power to summon spirits I don't really think having physical adepts compensating with augmentations is such a bad thing (considering).

Street Samurai - Heavy into augmentations (and more priority left for edge, attributes, skills, resources)
Burnout Adept - Power Point / Augmentation hybrid
Physical Adept - Heavy into Power Points, Qi focus and Weapon focus
Mystic Adept - Power Point / Magic hybrid
Magician - Heavy into Magic (and access to astral projection)

I actually find it odd that mystic adepts are not treated as aspected magicians (magicians that can only summon spirits or cast spells and also trade astral projection and free astral perception for the ability to get adept power points).

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’d of preferred if mystic adepts were aspected. I think they have to jump through Less hoops trying to balance them then.

The issue with the pp to essence cost imbalance especially combined with limited magic loss from ware is it pushes a burnout adept as the best option. And it’s not even close. It’s been a issue with the magicrun idea for a while. And it’s counter to the setting in the fluff. The rules should help reinforce the setting not go against them. Early editions had it right until they inevitable would release geas which people could cheese.

Right now the balance of the physical archetypes is pure adept super sucker, street sam sucker, burnout best choice.(basically because the burnout gives up nothing he is the best of both worlds with no downsides) 4e 5e were similar in this I think 6e pushes it further as the costs for adept powers for the most part jumped.

Personally I’d rather they punish magically actives with ware more so burnout didn’t help much. Balance the ware to magic costs. And come up with better ways for ware on mundanes to grow and not be stopped at 6 essence. The most easy to balance option would be to give mundanes a way to increase their essence but then it just feels the same as magic which can be a issue for some. Another option would be to have ways to spend karma so ware didn’t cost essence for you a you fully adapted to it advancement. It would create essence hold to be filled again.

[Alrician]

Sorry for hijacking that topic, but I have only a short question regarding adepts:

is there a limit/maxlevel for powers such as combat sense or critical strike? I did not read any limitations.

Is there a passage anywhere in the core rulebook, that the augmented maximum +4 is universal valid for all attribute increases?

(another sorry for my bad English)

[Michael Chandra]

The limit in older editions was Magic, but you're right that currently no limit is listed. Nothing is stopping you from stacking, asides from your actual PP.

As for augmented/adjusted max:

Various things modify attributes,
such as spells and gear, but a character’s
adjusted attribute can never be higher
than their current attribute rank +4.

[hulka]

Xenon  i have question.
CRB p.66 "Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments)
CRB p.156 "Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point." and "Power points do not need to be spent when they are obtained; characters can hold on to them and use them when ready."
I have 4 PP at chargen proces for "free" p.66, afer this i spend a adjustment point for raising my magic from 4 to 6, allways in chargen. So a get 2 PP, because my magic is raised, p.156. This power point i can use any time , why not in char gen or after chargen is closed p.156.
When i Donnt spent adjustment point in chargen and increase magic wia Karma, that applies what you wrote.

[Michael Chandra]

Under RAW, in chargen you do NOT gain PP from raising Magic. The clear clash between the rules is why we are eagerly awaiting errata.

[Xenon]

p. 66 describe how it work during chargen.
(mystic adepts as well as non-mystic adepts adjusting their magic by spending customization karma on magic or spending adjustment points on magic will not affect the number of power points they get during chargen, only unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance counts).

p. 156 describe how it work post chargen.
(non-mystic adepts, but not mystic adepts, spending regular post chargen karma to raise magic after they left chargen will give them a free power point that they may spend on an adept power or save for later and save when they know what they wish to spend it on).

The above might or might not change in upcoming errata, but this is how the rules seem to work right now at least.

[hulka]

I understand.
But raising magic is still raising magic.

Next.
CRB p.130
Learning Magic.
"New spells, rituals, or alchemical preparations  can be learned by studying spell formulae or finding some mentor"
Not Adept powers.
At Adept section is not mentioned (IMO, maybe im wrong), what new APs cost.

I understand that rules creators saves pages in RB, but this only one world or one row and all be clear. Nothing wrong, I like this game. Im waiting for new errata, i hope that its be early. :-)

[Xenon]

For an Adept the Karma cost for 1 Power Point after chargen is:

8 if you bind them into a Qi focus.
10 + New Initiation Grade if you use them to initiate and pick power point as your metamagic.
5 x New Magic Rating if you use use them to raise Magic.

[hulka]

Not Power Points but Adept Powers.

I have enough PP  and i can learn a new Adept Power like Killing Hands.

[Xenon]

Not Power Points but Adept Powers.

What do you mean by that?

The cost I listed is for Power Points (not Adept Powers).
Power Points you can use to buy Adept Powers with.
Many Adept Powers cost less than 1 full Power Point.

There are no other way to 'learn' an Adept Power.

The Adept Power section mention how many Power Points each Adept Power cost.

[hulka]

i understand.
I have at star Magic 4. i have 8 spells.
As adept i have Power points 4 and i can purshase Adept powers to 4.
After game start, I spend 25 Karma and increase Magic to 5. Now i can spend next 5 Karma for a new spell, when im Magician.
As adept i spend 25 Karma increase Magic to 5 and as rule say my Power points are 5 too. Now  a can add next Adept power to remained+new PP freely or like spell i have to spend some Karma for a new Adept power?

[PatrolDeer]

Non-mystic Adept powers ( I will use Xenon's distinction) are gained without the necessity to spend additional karma to learn.  So no, you don't need to spend 5 Karma to "learn" adept power after you successfully raised your magic rating and gained a Power Point.