[penllawen]

While Banshee is hopefully still willing to have his brain picked for "random Matrix stuff I never understood..."

What's the deal with devices that belong to someone but aren't being used right now? Like a parked car? Or some random Matrix-enabled device lying around their house? It doesn't seem right for it to be part of their PAN (if only for distance/noise reason) but it also doesn't feel right for it to be naked on the Matrix either. This seems particularly problematic with cars, which would be quite vulnerable to Matrix attacks.

Does the average wageslave driving their Jackrabbit around have the car slaved to their commlink?

[Beta]

One thought I've had is that when it comes to wageslaves, maybe they slave their car to the corporate host? For better security, don't you know.  That it helps the Corp keep track of them is just an incidental side effect. Really

That piece of cynicism aside, perhaps when not slaved to your link, the more concerned turn them wireless off?  You can't summon the car then or open it remotely, but it keeps it from getting hacked.

[Gareth]

Not only that, but if I enter a high noise environment and my commlink ceases to function, how can it still protect my parked car?

To work that way it would need to be more like a software license, with your comlink contract enabling the software on a limited number of devices!

[Gareth]

That piece of cynicism aside, perhaps when not slaved to your link, the more concerned turn them wireless off?  You can't summon the car then or open it remotely, but it keeps it from getting hacked.

Seems inconvenient when they're already computerised - surely it isn't beyond credibility that installing a firewall isn't out of the question...

[Banshee]

I would assume anything not in use and connected to a network is offline and therefore not hackable unless you can direct connect to it.

So for the average wage slave and his Jackrabbit example ... I would imagine it working more or less like real world modern cars. The Bluetooth is inactive until you get in it and start the car, then it auto-connects to your phone as long as it is programmed to do so or you purposefully remote access it ... So Joe Average doesn't have to worry about his car unless unless he is actively using it or remote accessing it.

Now some people would say then how does he remote access it if the car is not wireless active ... well it is active but it is effectively a one way transmission unless you are with 10 feet of it or so.

There really are no rules that reflect this (and never really has been), but it is the way I always imagined it in  my games.

[penllawen]

There really are no rules that reflect this (and never really has been), but it is the way I always imagined it in  my games.

That's brilliant though -- this-is-how-it-works-at-my-table stuff is just what I want.

I sometimes feel like the whole Matrix section is missing a dozen or so pages pages of in-world fluff that describes how it comes together. When I came at 5e cold, each bit of it made sense in isolation, but it took me a long time before I felt I even half-understood how it hangs together. And all sorts of common scenarios (like this one) are still mysteries to me.

[Banshee]

There really are no rules that reflect this (and never really has been), but it is the way I always imagined it in  my games.

That's brilliant though -- this-is-how-it-works-at-my-table stuff is just what I want.

I sometimes feel like the whole Matrix section is missing a dozen or so pages pages of in-world fluff that describes how it comes together. When I came at 5e cold, each bit of it made sense in isolation, but it took me a long time before I felt I even half-understood how it hangs together. And all sorts of common scenarios (like this one) are still mysteries to me.

Oh there is tons of stuff I would have loved to add, but there was a major page restriction we were working in. Hopefully I will get to add stuff in future books as they get done, and the sooner the better ... but that's out of my hands.

[Gareth]

Now some people would say then how does he remote access it if the car is not wireless active ... well it is active but it is effectively a one way transmission unless you are with 10 feet of it or so.

There really are no rules that reflect this (and never really has been), but it is the way I always imagined it in  my games.

Didn't the last edition of the rules include an example of the matrix centred about a wageslave logging into the matrix and connecting to her household computer to prepare dinner whilst being driven home in her car on autopilot?

That's more my impression of the matrix - connectivity,

A C-S Jackrabbit costs 11,000¥ - is it so much to ask that it includes a decent firewall so it isn't dependent upon my commlink for security?

You'd think that'd be a pretty simple security measure - even if wireless was deactivated someone can still hack in locally without some security,

[Hobbes]

See now, I pictured cars as always connected.  Wage Slave gets dropped off at the front door to the office, car auto pilot goes and parks.  End of day Wage Slave fires off an AR command and the Autopilot comes around to pick them up.  Climate control running, seats heated or cooled as appropriate.

I mean, your car drives itself.  Why would you ever walk across the Parking lot?

[Banshee]

Didn't the last edition of the rules include an example of the matrix centred about a wageslave logging into the matrix and connecting to her household computer to prepare dinner whilst being driven home in her car on autopilot?

That's more my impression of the matrix - connectivity,

Yes, but your talking something else entirely at this point though. Mr. Wageslave gets off work walks down to his car, on the way down he sends a command to start it up and have it ready for him, gets in and issues command to head home which engages the autopilot, then connects to his home network to start prepping dinner. All those commands are issued through his commlink, so in 5E this makes the commlink the master device and each of those devices are connecting to his PAN. In 6E it's not much different other than now they are all on the same network with no particular device being the master so then it just matter of jumping from device to device as needed for functionality, however since they are a shared network they also share a firewall ... in the case of Joe Wageslave that firewall will be his commlink because it is the best device he has access to for matrix security.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

My understanding is in line with Hobbes': everything is online, and fully accessible by users and hackers (subject to distance-based Noise) at all times.  Unless the device is destroyed or completely drained of power.  Or explicitly "Wireless Off".

So the way I understand things, the Jackrabbit's owner can send a message to the car, even if it is shut off and parked, to come pick him up at the Bar. And the car's Pilot software will start the engine and comply with the command to the best of its dogbrain ability.  The owner could even assume Remote Control of the car thru his commlink and bypass giving directions to the Pilot entirely.

As for a Firewall... it's probably a victim of the space constraints but I think it's fairly clear, via inertia from 5e, that unless specified otherwise, all devices roll Device Rating in place of any lacking attributes called out for a defense test. Device Ratings also didn't get an example chart to serve as a yardstick, but I presume nothing's changed there since 5e and devices designed for civilian consumption would be Device Rating 2.  So a car being hacked would roll 4 dice if undefended by the owner or his PAN.  Not much, but still unless the owner is a hacker the dice pool isn't likely to get much larger anyway by "being protected".  In fact, higher-DR vehicles built for elite corpsec or the military are going to be better off NOT being "protected" by chump goon NPCs (that aren't Riggers/Deckers).

[penllawen]

As for a Firewall... it's probably a victim of the space constraints but I think it's fairly clear, via inertia from 5e, that unless specified otherwise, all devices roll Device Rating in place of any attributes called out for a defense test. Device Ratings also didn't get an example chart to serve as a yardstick, but I presume nothing's changed there since 5e and devices designed for civilian consumption would be Device Rating 2.  So a car being hacked would roll 4 dice if undefended by the owner or his PAN.

That's a lot of dice in 6e though, where an 8000 nuyen, Rating 6 commlink has D/F stats of 3/1. It would imply most civilians would be better off never PANning anything, as their commlinks would be the weakest link. Maybe that's the intent...?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As for a Firewall... it's probably a victim of the space constraints but I think it's fairly clear, via inertia from 5e, that unless specified otherwise, all devices roll Device Rating in place of any attributes called out for a defense test. Device Ratings also didn't get an example chart to serve as a yardstick, but I presume nothing's changed there since 5e and devices designed for civilian consumption would be Device Rating 2.  So a car being hacked would roll 4 dice if undefended by the owner or his PAN.

That's a lot of dice in 6e though, where an 8000 nuyen, Rating 6 commlink has D/F stats of 3/1. It would imply most civilians would be better off never PANning anything, as their commlinks would be the weakest link. Maybe that's the intent...?

It would depend on how their Mental Attributes are.  Bear in mind that Matrix Attributes are fully fungible in 6we.  The commlink with D/F 3/1 also has a D/F of 1/3 available at a moment's notice.  And also, when directly protected you can use your mental attributes to defend against matrix actions.  Granted, with 2 being the new 3, common devices aren't gaining much by being actively defended by plebeians, but your odd corp scientist (or shadowrunner) with decent Intuition probably gains a lot simply by replacing his own mental stats with the Device Rating.

[penllawen]

It would depend on how their Mental Attributes are.  Bear in mind that Matrix Attributes are fully fungible in 6we.  The commlink with D/F 3/1 also has a D/F of 1/3 available at a moment's notice.

Sure, but isn't hacking resistance Data Processing + Firewall anyway? Making that the same either way.

And also, when directly protected you can use your mental attributes to defend against matrix actions.

Which I've never quite understood in this sort of scenario, by the by. What is actually going on in-world here? Is the commlink beeping and saying "argh I'm being attacked" and the person is actively doing stuff to try and defend it? Does that mean the user is always aware that a hack attempt has happened?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It would depend on how their Mental Attributes are.  Bear in mind that Matrix Attributes are fully fungible in 6we.  The commlink with D/F 3/1 also has a D/F of 1/3 available at a moment's notice.

Sure, but isn't hacking resistance Data Processing + Firewall anyway? Making that the same either way.

It depends on the action in question. Sometimes Intuition or Logic is called out in place of a matrix attribute. Backdoor Entry and Brute Force both call out Willpower as an attribute for the defender... and if you're trying to hack a car odds are you need to do one of those two things in order to get User access to the device.

And also, when directly protected you can use your mental attributes to defend against matrix actions.

Which I've never quite understood in this sort of scenario, by the by. What is actually going on in-world here? Is the commlink beeping and saying "argh I'm being attacked" and the person is actively doing stuff to try and defend it? Does that mean the user is always aware that a hack attempt has happened?

It is what it is.  I like to imagine it as your "matrix discipline".  Do you reflexively dismiss notifications from your commlink warning you that your software has updates available and perpetually leave your commlink open to exploits? That's a game manifestation of low Willpower, imo.

I've seen cases where writers in missions (5e, for context) said that an unattended car or a stolen commlink still gets to roll its owner's Willpower because the owner was the one who configured its matrix permissions.

Either way, I'm a fan of the concept of the GM rolling the defense test if it's a PC getting hacked.  I'm an old school GM though... the player not needing to know anything the character doesn't notice is the right and natural state of things by my sensibilities   You wouldn't ask a player to roll Perception to see if they notice a Secret Door, would you?

You could of course instead say that rolling a defense test does cause AROs to start blaring warnings to the owner, and the Willpower represents how focused they are in engaging in a game of popup whackamole with the hacker... but this is directly contradictory to the sneaky sorts of hacking actions that aren't supposed to alert the owner to what's going on.