[LukeZ]

Summoning Procedures (5 karma each)
I wanted to give Conjurers something specific to spend karma on (like spells/rituals and alchemical preparations).
What do you think?

Summon Air Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Air Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Air Spirit I.
Summon Air Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Air Spirit II.
Summon Air Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Air Spirit III.
...
Summon Beasts Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Beasts Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Beasts Spirit I.
Summon Beasts Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Beasts Spirit II.
Summon Beasts Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Beasts Spirit III.
...
Summon Earth Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Earth Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Earth Spirit I.
Summon Earth Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Earth Spirit II.
Summon Earth Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Earth Spirit III.
...
Summon Fire Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Fire Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Fire Spirit I.
Summon Fire Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Fire Spirit II.
Summon Fire Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Fire Spirit III.
...
Summon Kin Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Kin Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Kin Spirit I.
Summon Kin Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Kin Spirit II.
Summon Kin Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Kin Spirit III.
...
Summon Water Spirit I: The summoned Force 1-2 spirit has 1 Optional Power instead of none. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes.
Summon Water Spirit II: The summoned Force 3-5 spirit has 2 Optional Powers instead of 1. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Water Spirit I.
Summon Water Spirit III: The summoned Force 6-8 spirit has 3 Optional Powers instead of 2. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Water Spirit II.
Summon Water Spirit IV: The summoned Force 9-11 spirit has 4 Optional Powers instead of 3. Additional +1 to Physical and Mental Attributes. Requirement: Summon Water Spirit III.
...

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think summoning is the most over powered thing in the game so probably doesn’t need this. The additional attribute points can get really out of hand. Their skills are equal to their force and many attributes already have a +. A air spirit is already an amazing shot this would pad that and remove their weakness areas like reduced body.

[Finstersang]

TBH, with the ongoing craziness of Spiritrun:

Why not count each type of Spirit just like a spell/ritual/formular that Summoners have to learn before they can summon it? That would have 2 benefits:

• There´s at least a little bit of additional Karma investment needed besides raising the Summoning Skill (many Summoners use only 2-3 types of Spirits at best, so it´s hardly breaking the bank either. It´s a nerf, but a quite tame one...)
• It adds a Ressource for aspected Summoners that they can buy due to their Priority choce instead of spells/rituals/formulars

[MercilessMing]

Without a corresponding nerf to spirits, you're just making the most overpowered part of magic even more OP.

Personally, and we're just talking home rules here, I wish they had "eliminated" force for spirits like they did for spells.  Take the stats for a Force X spirit, and let that be what you always get when you summon that type of spirit.  Then add an Amp system to buff your spirit with optional powers and stats.

[Michael Chandra]

Given how all this does is add a karma cost to spirit types, rather than letting you freely summon them all, I seem to be missing something if this makes summoning more OP?

[Finstersang]

I think that MercilessMing refers to the Original poster, not my suggestion to gate spirit types besides a Karma cost.

[MercilessMing]

Yes I was responding to the original poster.
Paying to conjure each spirit sounds good to me, honestly.  I'd even consider making full magicians and mystic adepts split their starting magic resources between spells and spirits, but I do like hitting magicians with the nerf bat and should reign that in. (I don't even allow astral projection in my game, honestly it's so much better that way)

[Michael Chandra]

'X Spells' simply means X Spell Formulae learned, where a Spell Formula can be for a Spell, a Ritual, a Preparation, or in this case Spirits. So they'd be making the heavy choice. Combined with the 'no learning other spell formulae in chargen' restriction, it makes it an even tougher choice and encourages them to get a higher Magic Priority if they also need one for a spirit. I would consider boosting it to Mx3 though, since the current Mx2 is extremely inferior karma-wise. It's a tough choice and I haven't decided on a fair alternative priority table yet... But yeah, I really like the idea of having to learn how to summon specific spirit types, now that UMT allows you to summon all.

I suspect Guardian (not in game yet) and Kindred will be the most popular ones.

[LukeZ]

Ok, after your feedback I've decided to give 2 x Magic (so from 2 to 12) known formulas at creation and add the following 12 Conjure formulas (without knowing a formula you can't use the relative effect):

Summon Air Spirit
Summon Beast Spirit
Summon Earth Spirit
Summon Fire Spirit
Summon Kin Spirit
Summon Water Spirit
Banish Air Spirit
Banish Beast Spirit
Banish Earth Spirit
Banish Fire Spirit
Banish Kin Spirit
Banish Water Spirit

[Michael Chandra]

Hmm since there eventually will be 10 types to summon and at least 14, probably far more, I don't think Banishing should be so expensive. Just like counterspelling doesn't go per spell. The countermeasures shouldn't be that hard or you're buffing too much.

[LukeZ]

Banishing is double as taxing (Drain) as Summoning, while dispelling is no taxing at all: this is why I thought banishing should have his formulas too.

Anyway I'll think about this.

I'm also starting to think that formulas (and complex forms) should cost no karma to learn, but should require an additional 10.000 nuyen cost for study, materials, tests, experimentations during the 1 week time of learning time.

[Finstersang]

Think so as well, the standard banishment procedure is already pretty taxing.

However, "Banishment Formulars" might still be a worthwhile idea - but unlike the "Summoning Formulars", they don´t gate Spirit types, but unlock other, less taxing or more strategically interesting kinds of "Banishing":

Some Examples:

• "Pushing" spirits back into Astral space and prevent them from Materializing
• The same in reverse: "Pulling" spirits into the physical world and forcing them to Materialize
• Prevent Spirits from Entering or Leaving a certain area (like a spontanous astral ward)
• Slowing down Astral Movement
• Forcing Possession spirits (I guess they will return in the upcoming sourcebooks) out of a host and/or prevent the from in inhabiting the host in the first place (i.e. Exorcism)
• Forcing Spirits into a certain host (the "genie in the lamp")
• Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types. (F.i. Reduced Drain, see the post below  )
• "Capturing" Spirits from other Summoners for yourself.
• Disrupting Immunity to normal weapons

This is more homebrew than houserule territory. Might be worth looking into for the Magic supplements. Banishment, like Enchanting, could use some more depth besides a power boost.

[LukeZ]

Think so as well, the standard banishment procedure is already pretty taxing.

However, "Banishment Formulars" might still be a worthwhile idea - but unlike the "Summoning Formulars", they don´t gate Spirit types, but unlock other, less taxing or more strategically interesting kinds of "Banishing":

Some Examples:

• "Pushing" spirits back into Astral space and prevent them from Materializing
• The same in reverse: "Pulling" spirits into the physical world and forcing them to Materialize
• Prevent Spirits from Entering or Leaving a certain area (like a spontanous astral ward)
• Slowing down Astral Movement
• Forcing Possession spirits (I guess they will return in the upcoming sourcebooks) out of a host and/or prevent the from in inhabiting the host in the first place (i.e. Exorcism)
• Forcing Spirits into a certain host (the "genie in the lamp")
• Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types
• "Capturing" Spirits from other Summoners for yourself.
• Disrupting Immunity to normal weapons

This is more homebrew than houserule territory. Might be worth looking into for the Magic supplements. Banishment, like Enchanting, could use some more depth besides a power boost.

All very good ideas!

Maybe "Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types" could simply reduce Drain to Rolled Hits instead of 2 x Rolled Hits

[Finstersang]

Thanks 

On a side note (that probably deserves a whole thread with more examples): I have made this general observation in 5th Edition that the devs were quite... prone to buff strategies and playstyles that were already pretty strong and favoured. "Gimmicky", situational and more flavour-heavy spells, perks and gear options tended to fall behing the "dominant strategies" even further with the supplements, instead of catching up and rewarding players to think more outside the powergaming box.

Maybe that happens by accident or ignorance, but in many cases, I think the devs actually did some superficial research in the fores and thought it was a good idea to give more sugar to these playstyles, because they are more popular and the players might be bummed out because there´s nothing in the supplement to compliment "their" playstyle. Note that the dominant "2x Increase Attributes, 1 Increase Reflexes" buff setup is not only back and alive in 6th Edition, but even got a huge buff via the changes to the Increase Attribute spell Focused Concentration.

This is a design trap that I really hope(d) they wouldn´t fall into again. These playstyles seem "popular" on the surface, but they are often adopted quite grudgingly, because the more fluffy and interesting options are already way behind the dominant strategies. For each player that goes: "Yay, my optimized Summoner/Spellcaster got another buff" there´s 9 players that roll their eyes because of that - and 3 of them actually play an optimized Summoner/Spellcaster, because whatever they really wanted to play felt so way behind in comparison.

Bottom line: More love to the gimmicky stuff! Buffing "popular" playstyles is a trap!

[MercilessMing]

Any quality you can look at and say, "I'd be an idiot not to take this," is a bad one.  I'm really disappointed in Focused Concentration.  The spell sustaining penalty is to me right next to Drain as the core limiter of magician power.  Altering that restriction could be a Metamagic, but to place it in chargen was a very bad choice.