[Lormyr]

I am aware of Catalyst’s humble origins, and in 2007 when this happened it would have been a good reason to cut them some slack... but that was 12 years ago. Today, Catalyst is a professional games firm, publishing games it wants people to buy. That makes it fair game for critical appraisal - which is what 6e is getting.

Also: as long back as 2010, Catalyst was rich enough that the founder accidentally spend three quarters of a million dollars from the company accounts and nobody noticed for a year. It just raised $2.5m on a Kickstarter. I don’t think it’s poor, or deserving of any pity or special treatment for being small.

This. We are past the point of poor quality control of this magnitude being excusable. Some errors? Perfectly acceptable. 10 full pages of errata launched with the public release of the book itself, with additional errata necessary down the road? That is a really tough sell man, imo the company should demand better of itself, and so should the fans.

[adzling]

the fish rots from the head.

what are they gonna do, cut their own head off?

Catalyst will not recover, it will always be like this (or worse).

[Lormyr]

what are they gonna do, cut their own head off?

Ideally?

They elect to improve, or we (fans) vote with our wallets and stop buying. Companies are usually only as responsible as the people that make their existence possible force them to be.

I honestly haven't encountered this a lot in the gaming business, and not knowing any of these people personally, I can only speculate what the issue is. All I can say for certain is that if I personally held the reigns for something I actually cared for I certainly would not have allowed it go down like this.

Edit: For note I am referring specifically to quality control of the printed product, not necessarily the game mechanics. Though that is also an issue, it's a lesser one compared to the quality control due to differences in opinion being valid.

[FastJack]

Critical appraisal that turns toxic. Fish rotting from the head, so we should fire Line Developers. Vote with the wallets and don't buy the game. Whatever gets you guys through this. I know I'm done with the drama. I'm supporting the game so we can get more books and more game. The routes you're taking lead to Catalyst looking at Shadowrun as not profitable, expecting them to pour money into something that won't make them money, or try to sell an IP that is not profitable to another company. Good luck with that.

[Michael Chandra]

Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.

[penllawen]

Can you at least see how uninspiring a counter-argument that is, FJ?

“This sucks.”
“It’s better than nothing.”

[KatoHearts]

"Shut up, consume product."

[FastJack]

Can you at least see how uninspiring a counter-argument that is, FJ?

“This sucks.”
“It’s better than nothing.”

I tried being inspiring and people called me delusional and a corporate mouthpiece.

It is better than nothing, since I don't see anyone here producing a game and publishing it. If it really and truly sucks, go out and design one that doesn't.

[dezmont]

Because the consumption of an RPG costs time and money it can, in fact, be worse than nothing.

The argument that one should not critique something because one cannot or will not make their own replacement is fairly obviously fallacious, because it attacks the very idea of critical discernment. You can literally apply it in any context.

"I don't like how [politician] is running things..." "Well its better than NO politician running things and I don't see you running for president!"

Or to go to the absolutely cliche resturant metaphor, saying that a resturant is bad and the food is all dry and obviously reheated isn't invalidated or countered by "I don't see you opening a resturant."

Like... yeah... obviously I am not. If I was an RPG designer or amazing chef or whatever I wouldn't be in the position to buy this product... criticism is mostly valuable to the people who are forced to choose from a field of competing products or who want to recievr a high quality service when they CAN'T just wave a magic wand and change things by doing it themselves.

[penllawen]

If it really and truly sucks, go out and design one that doesn't.

I already have a job, so I guess I’ll just have to settle for not buying any 6e stuff instead.

[FastJack]

I absolutely love how you all keep putting the line in my mouth that I'm saying you shouldn't critique something after I say time and time again how I want you to express your opinions on these forums without fear of reprisal. Please, keep saying that.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Critical appraisal that turns toxic. Fish rotting from the head, so we should fire Line Developers. Vote with the wallets and don't buy the game. Whatever gets you guys through this. I know I'm done with the drama. I'm supporting the game so we can get more books and more game. The routes you're taking lead to Catalyst looking at Shadowrun as not profitable, expecting them to pour money into something that won't make them money, or try to sell an IP that is not profitable to another company. Good luck with that.

It is always fun to see when someone hits the Stockholm Syndrome fueled victim blaming.

"The rules aren't good because y'all didn't support them!  It is your own fault that the system isn't as good as it could be!  CGL loves me!  I know they do!"

Classic.

[FastJack]

On

Critical appraisal that turns toxic. Fish rotting from the head, so we should fire Line Developers. Vote with the wallets and don't buy the game. Whatever gets you guys through this. I know I'm done with the drama. I'm supporting the game so we can get more books and more game. The routes you're taking lead to Catalyst looking at Shadowrun as not profitable, expecting them to pour money into something that won't make them money, or try to sell an IP that is not profitable to another company. Good luck with that.

It is always fun to see when someone hits the Stockholm Syndrome fueled victim blaming.

"The rules aren't good because y'all didn't support them!  It is your own fault that the system isn't as good as it could be!  CGL loves me!  I know they do!"

Classic.

Once again, continue with how I'm delusional. I'm sure that makes your toxic comments feel justified.

[adzling]

look whatever your feelings about fastjacks comments you have to respect him as a mod, imho.

He does a difficult job on these boards, pretty much single-handed, for free.

In my experience he's a pretty fair moderator, giving folks a lot of leeway on their posts here.

So please just keep that in mind, when you react to stuff he's posting.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Once again, continue with how I'm delusional. I'm sure that makes your toxic comments feel justified.

Weren't you going to stop commenting on these forums because customers told you you were too toxic for them to keep visiting these forums?