[steelybran]

For those who have a lot of chances to play 6e, I was curious:

How much work would it take to incorporate 5th Edition Armor/Weapon rules into the 6th Edition system?  I.E. - Take the armor and weapons tables and inject them into 6th edition, or would that be impossible without overhauling a huge chunk of the rule book (instead of just applying armor for soak and the old damage numbers for weapons)?

[Michael Chandra]

If you're gutting the edge system for combat people, you're gutting the game.

[steelybran]

Yeah, probably. 
Unless you incorporated AR and a "Soak Rating", and Weapon Rating and Damage Rating

Armor Rating vs Weapon Rating for Edge
Soak Rating vs Damage Rating for Damage

[taukarrie]

In the game Im about to start I plan to slightly modify the AR DR relationship to improve armor effectiveness.

Attacker bonus remains mostly the same with one small adjustment; +1 edge for EVERY 4 AR above the target's DR and this can exceed the 2 edge per turn cap. It likely wont happen often but its nice when it does, and encourages people to wear armor even if that first 4 AR usually happens for an attacker.

Defender bonus: if the target's DR meets or exceeds the attacker's AR target may roll body+armor bonus for damage soak.

 I feel like this makes armor a little more important without disrupting the existing edge system. Most of the time an attack will be a push, no edge or bonus for anyone. but if an attacker fires his shotgun at close range on a bare chested target it will cause exceptionally serious damage. But if you fire that same shotgun at its max effective range on a target wearing security armor you may hit him but that damage will most likely get bounced.

 

[Michael Chandra]

I like the first idea (I would maybe cap it at some value), and I rather like the second though it needs a bit of finesse to not make Steel Lynxes impossible to damage. I'm considering some form of range damage penalty to make ARs with a scope still suffer a bit at extreme range.

[taukarrie]

I like the first idea (I would maybe cap it at some value), and I rather like the second though it needs a bit of finesse to not make Steel Lynxes impossible to damage. I'm considering some form of range damage penalty to make ARs with a scope still suffer a bit at extreme range.

Glad you mentioned that. I didnt even consider drone and vehicle stats. I might just say that drones and vehicles just use the normal rules since their numbers are so high to begin with

[PatrolDeer]

I have red around the forum some ideas on why there is no armour soak and how to put armour back. I am not familiar with previous editions, but I can say that I have reasonable knowledge about firearms and armour.
First of all, if we are not slinging mojo, we can't fool physics. There is a LOT of factors influencing projectile hitting armour, mostly Energy.
A bullet is driven by the energy generated by the gunpowder and torque form the barrel. This energy hits the armour together with the bullet and creates shock, as the travelling energy hits body mass. The purpose of the armour is to stop the fragmented bullet (as it shatters when it hits the armour) and to reduce the effect of incoming energy.
Every time you are hit by a bullet to the armour, you will get damaged by the energy. Broken ribs, ripped tissue, possible damage to internal organs, concussion, and more are all effects of the shock, not the bullet.
Yes there are exceptions of course but in general, if a character doesn't want to get hit, take that cover!

By no means I want to attack your ideas or in general be a dreakhead, just offering my point of view.

[Hephaestus]

I have red around the forum some ideas on why there is no armour soak and how to put armour back. I am not familiar with previous editions, but I can say that I have reasonable knowledge about firearms and armour.
First of all, if we are not slinging mojo, we can't fool physics. There is a LOT of factors influencing projectile hitting armour, mostly Energy.
A bullet is driven by the energy generated by the gunpowder and torque form the barrel. This energy hits the armour together with the bullet and creates shock, as the travelling energy hits body mass. The purpose of the armour is to stop the fragmented bullet (as it shatters when it hits the armour) and to reduce the effect of incoming energy.
Every time you are hit by a bullet to the armour, you will get damaged by the energy. Broken ribs, ripped tissue, possible damage to internal organs, concussion, and more are all effects of the shock, not the bullet.
Yes there are exceptions of course but in general, if a character doesn't want to get hit, take that cover!

By no means I want to attack your ideas or in general be a dreakhead, just offering my point of view.

In 5th, this was covered by the interaction between damage and armor rating. If the damage was less than your armor rating, then you had to resist stun damage instead of physical. This meant that wearing FBA allowed you to soak small arms as stun instead of chipping away at your physical health. The issue became skew characters that had jacked up BOD+armor pools of ~40 dice, and anything short of an assault cannon or rocket launcher was doing stun damage.

[PatrolDeer]

In 5th, this was covered by the interaction between damage and armor rating. If the damage was less than your armor rating, then you had to resist stun damage instead of physical. This meant that wearing FBA allowed you to soak small arms as stun instead of chipping away at your physical health. The issue became skew characters that had jacked up BOD+armor pools of ~40 dice, and anything short of an assault cannon or rocket launcher was doing stun damage.

Back in the day of full plate mail, peasants had nothing to penetrate the armour of French Heavy cavalry. What they did was that they grouped up, pulled the knight down from his horse and hit/pierced the joints. Elbows, knees, hips were shattered and than they took the knight captive. Like a smashed tin can of beans. Seems to me as a grunt group using its edge and tactical thinking properly 

In this system, you are rolling to defend - reducing opponents net hits - and than to soak, reducing damage value together with net hits. Armour gives you, or denies the opponent Edge - which is used to do cool stuff, including dice manipulation. So Armour is actually in play, because for that edge, I can bump up one of my 4 to 5, escaping any damage if I am in a tie situation. I can re-roll my dice, or re roll opponents dice. Armour should not solely protect me from getting damage, than I can just stand there, in the middle of a firefight.

There is still cover and also dodge - that is a lot of defence bonuses in my opinion. Combat should feel deadly and characters should get hit. Also, the aspect of healing has to be taken into the context. I heard that in previous editions, healing had to be sustained and it was slow. Now it's fast. The value of healers and combat medics just rose quite high. So now we have an incentive to move tactically, talk to each other and co-operate, incorporate all our assets as a group to put up a good fight and succeed. Shoot, move, communicate.
Also the realism aspect, that if you know how to make holes in people, you probably should know how to treat them.

Being able to resist assault rifle at far range with a lined coat is not the way action shoot out rpg looks like in my imagination.

[Michael Chandra]

I heard that in previous editions, healing had to be sustained and it was slow.

This is correct. Heal was a Permanent spell, which meant sustaining it (hello sustaining penalty!) for <Force> (which you would want set equal to the damage you wanted to heal) Combat Turns. And a Combat Turn for most people was 2 Initiative Passes. In contrast, any fight that wasn't a bunkered down with lots of negative modifiers fight, tended to end within a single Combat Turn. So healing 4 damage would basically take far more than most fight durations. You'd have to use Reagents to set a high limit, cast at Force 1 and roll excessive hits you could use to reduce the sustain duration to heal faster. Plus using Heal meant you could not apply First Aid on that set of wounds afterwards.

Now, Permanent doesn't come with a lengthy sustain duration, it just means the effect becomes part of this world. And Heal can come before First Aid, so you can cast Heal during combat without having to worry about permanent (during the run) damage if you don't heal off all the boxes.

[AJCarrington]

What are people’s thoughts on developing a weapon mod/acc system that dovetail in with the Edge system?

[Michael Chandra]

I think Edge Boost discounts would be interesting. Or some bonus with as downside more expensive edge boosts. And of course the classic +1 AR on melee personalised grips.

[PatrolDeer]

Just some ideas from the top of my head.

-Flash light  - if used in low light or total darkness gain edge for your attack roll against the illuminated target. Flair compensation negates. Range limitation - Near (possibly use the same rule as with tracers- see below) Mount: under

-Foregrip/C clamp - Gain edge when attacking using full auto mode of fire. This edge has to be used for that attack. ( it could work for burst as well, but I am afraid of it's effects in conjunction with burst fire and anticipation.) Range limitation: Near. Mount: under

-Tracer rounds- If using tracer rounds, grant an edge to every team-mate attacking the same target after your successful attack lasting until your next turn. (single target, careful about bursts and full autos)  However enemies which are attacking you afterwords will gain edge. ( tracers are going both ways, you grant your team a trace towards enemies position, but enemies can see from where those tracers are coming from, suggested for Machine gun nests  or situations where you are using range advantage, perhaps sacrificial drones ) No range limitation (note: the word team-mate is not defined in rules, it might actually apply to anyone attacking that particular target, not just team-mates)

-Laser sight should have Range limitation: Near, also having laser sights active could give enemy edge for perception checks and surprise checks (it's easier to spot you). Different modes of laser (low light, thermal) can grant edge only to enemies with matching vision enhancement. Range limitation: Near.
With this in mind, I am thinking that wireless bonus for laser sight could be: you can switch between modes without spending minor action. Finally I am thinking if laser sight bonus would apply for full auto, but I might be nerfing it too hard here.

-Taped mags- Common trick to reduce reloading time, tape two mags together. Useful only for assault rifles and SMGs'. Reloading from 1st to 2nd mag costs Minor action, however than you must use Major action to insert fresh magazine (can be another tapped mags) I would reduce the attack rating by 1 and decrease concealment by 1 (it's easier to spot) not an edge mod, but something which I assume was mentioned in previous editions.

-Extended mags- Increase capacity of the magazine by 10 rounds, doesn't apply for machine guns and shotguns. Decrease concealment by 1. (easier to spot)

-Precision heavy barrel - installed for machine guns and sniper rifles, gain edge when attacking at far and extreme ranges, maybe it doesn't need to be edge, just attack rating boost, which could or could not result in edge gain. Range limitation: Far, Extreme

Considering armour:

-Fire resistance armour mod could negate explosive round damage.
-If you have installed biomonitor in your armour, person performing first aid on you gets and edge to use for that test. Urban explorer jumpsuit is now a cool option. Maybe too cool.
-Flak vest - gain bonus defence rating against grenades and missiles. Reduced capacity
-Buckler- Does not protect against firearms, + 1 defence rating in melee, gain edge when using Block action. ( don't know if it should be limited for Block test or not) Special attack - Damage 3S, AR 4 (or 5). Bucklers are amazing in close combat, they are a good defence/interceptor of incoming attacks as well as for hitting meta humans in the face. Zap versions are possible.

[Finstersang]

Flechettes/"Splinters" are a kind of a missed opportunity right now, especially in regards to Armor interaction. In previous Edition, there was a Damage boost that was counterweighed by increasing armor as well. While this was a bit questionable in execution (increasing Armor just meant that the average soak roll eats up most of the damage bonus, unless the target either has no Armor at all or hardened/vehicle Armor), the intent was clear: Flechette is supposed to be less effective against armor.

In 6th Edition, there are Flechette Rounds for Shotguns, which are just a worse version of the already pretty questionable APDS rounds, the Tiffany Needler and the Ares Viper Slivergun (both of which have stats that suggest that Flechette Rounds should in fact increase the DV and not decrease it  ), and finally, Frag Grenades. The later 2 of them even have the legacy P(fl) listed in their Damage codes, despite there being no special rules for Flechette Damage 

Adding some kind of "Armor helps against this"-effect to Flechette damage (and changing the modifiers of Shotgun Flechettes to a bonus , as it should be...) would help to give this kind of Ammo a clear purpose: Good against lightly armored targets, increasingly worse against the tanky stuff. It would also make armor a bit more valuable and also slightly nerf Frag grenades, which are strictly better than Hi-Ex grenades atm. I´ve already posted some suggestions on this in the house rules thread.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

What are people’s thoughts on developing a weapon mod/acc system that dovetail in with the Edge system?

First, I'm not here to rain on any ones parade.  If you are into this idea, and are having fun working it, then you go <insert pronoun of choice here>!

Just be aware, if you start adding situational Edge gains into gear you are creating the exact same problem that the Sixth World Edge system was supposed to fix.

Instead of tracking down all the little +1s and +2s that only apply in some situations and to some rolls you will be having to track down all the little Edge gains that can be gained under some situations and on some rolls.

You will be taking the "simplified" out of Sixth World.

Again, go for it if'n ya like it!