[MercilessMing]

Something interesting came up in another thread on cyberdecks, what does it mean for a cyberdeck to have an A/S attribute listing in gear tables, when cyberdeck attributes are as malleable as clay?  Sure, the intent is that you pair it up with a cyberjack or commlink or something else with D/F, but when you think about it, the cyberdeck is just as capable of having these attributes as well (even though it's not immediately obvious). 
Building on that, we can also see that you could pair up a cyberdeck with another cyberdeck to get a full range of high level matrix attributes without a cyberjack.  This will cost about 15-20k more and you lose the benefits of the jack, but if you do that cost benefit analysis, it's a good tradeoff for someone who wants to keep their essence pure.  AR adept or wired reflexes hacking - alive and well in 6th?

Edit: It's really Adept hackers that are alive and well with this; the rest is alive and well regardless.

[CigarSmoker]

1 minor thing is you cant use the Hacker Edge Actions without implanted Cyberjack.

Major thing is, with Cyberjack VI + cheapest Deck your GM could actually brick your deck without totally shafting you.

With 2 decks each worth 170.000Y its kind of sick when one gets bricked.

So for me it makes the Decker less "babysitted". A good thing imo.

[Michael Chandra]

You van only form your persona through either a deck or an rcc supposedly but don't know how that works if you're doing a complicated pan.

[Hobbes]

1 minor thing is you cant use the Hacker Edge Actions without implanted Cyberjack.

Major thing is, with Cyberjack VI + cheapest Deck your GM could actually brick your deck without totally shafting you.

With 2 decks each worth 170.000Y its kind of sick when one gets bricked.

So for me it makes the Decker less "babysitted". A good thing imo.

I mean, getting Bricked is a minor inconvenience.  It's a 1 hour test to repair a few boxes.  Matrix Damage is fully repairable. 

[CigarSmoker]

Then replace bricked by physically destroyed/taken away ^^

[Banshee]

I have mentioned this elsewhere too, but just give some insight the original intent was to NOT swap attributes across devices .. this meant the only way to have a Attack or Sleaze rating was to have a deck, then combine that with either a cyberjack or a commlink to get a full persona. But that changed in the editorial phase.

There are errata changes in the works that will alter RAW some but still have a few options pending so I can't say specifically in what way.

I know doesn't help much for now ... but if I was gm'ing a home game I would only allow a deck plus jack or deck plus commlink combo

[MercilessMing]

I have mentioned this elsewhere too, but just give some insight the original intent was to NOT swap attributes across devices .. this meant the only way to have a Attack or Sleaze rating was to have a deck, then combine that with either a cyberjack or a commlink to get a full persona.

But it's not swapping across devices, is it?  Like I pointed out in the other thread:
Cyberdeck has A/S of 7/6 listed in Gear section
pg 174 - "If the device doesn’t possess one or more of the Matrix attributes, then the applicable attribute is treated as if it were 0."
Cyberdeck's real attributes are A/S/D/F  of 7/6/0/0
Cyberdeck swaps its A/S with its D/F, so it's 0/0/7/6
Cyberdeck combines with another cyberdeck in standard config, combined persona is 7/6/7/6.

If it's not legal for a deck to swap from 7/6/0/0 to 0/0/7/6, how does someone with just a deck and no jack set up a PAN?  It would have 0 max slaved devices and 0 firewall.

[Banshee]

That's just it ... it only has 2 attributes not 4. I purposely wrote so it took 2 devices combined to create a full blown persona, but the final product does not represent that. Having a zero in an attribute means it should be off limits.

Your cyberjack or commlink is what directly interacts with matrix which is why it has the D/F and is the host of the Persona ... anyone can use these two devices to perform basic legal matrix actions. It is when you add a cyberdeck that you add A/S and open the possibility of illegal hacking actions.
When they opened up the swap across devices it introduced that secondary level of possibility where you can create weird combinations and allows you to bypass the zero attribute condition.

[Plan_B]

pg 174 - "If the device doesn’t possess one or more of the Matrix attributes, then the applicable attribute is treated as if it were 0."

"Treated as if" is the key phrase here. It isn't saying it gets/has those attributes at a rating of 0, only that it is treated as if it were 0 when needed. Without having the attribute, at any rating, you can't assign a value to by changing settings because it's not there to take on that value.

[Banshee]

pg 174 - "If the device doesn’t possess one or more of the Matrix attributes, then the applicable attribute is treated as if it were 0."

"Treated as if" is the key phrase here. It isn't saying it gets/has those attributes at a rating of 0, only that it is treated as if it were 0 when needed. Without having the attribute, at any rating, you can't assign a value to by changing settings because it's not there to take on that value.

Again... well said. I should have had you edit my stuff 😉

[MercilessMing]

Banshee, thanks for your responses.

That's just it ... it only has 2 attributes not 4. I purposely wrote so it took 2 devices combined to create a full blown persona, but the final product does not represent that. Having a zero in an attribute means it should be off limits.

That makes more sense with the rest of the CRB, where lack of a rating is different than 0 in a rating (like AR at long ranges, etc).  Matrix may be alone in this?

Your cyberjack or commlink is what directly interacts with matrix which is why it has the D/F and is the host of the Persona ... anyone can use these two devices to perform basic legal matrix actions.

Hold up, how do you perform basic legal matrix actions with just a cyberjack?  In the other thread, not even a day ago Plan_B said (and you agreed with gusto) that cyberdecks contained commlink functionality, not cyberjacks.  Cyberjacks were just a next gen interface and massive amount of computing power with nowhere to go.  It makes sense if, as I argued to him, the cyberjack should have commlink functionality, while the cyberdeck esentially weaponizes a computing platform, but you wholeheartedly agreed this was not the case - cyberdecks were the gatekeeper to the Matrix.
This bit of the text agrees with that position:

pg. 173, explaining PANs:
"On the user side, the Matrix is built around the Personal Area Network (PAN). These are networks composed of a commlink and/or a deck"

I don't know how a cyberdeck can make a PAN by itself without being able to swap its A/S to D/F.  I get the feeling that sometimes when the book says "deck" or "cyberdeck" its actually referring to the combined jack + deck.  Maybe copypasta or change blindness is to blame.

It is when you add a cyberdeck that you add A/S and open the possibility of illegal hacking actions.

Weaponizing a computer platform, like I said in the other thread!  Yes

[Banshee]

Banshee, thanks for your responses.

That's just it ... it only has 2 attributes not 4. I purposely wrote so it took 2 devices combined to create a full blown persona, but the final product does not represent that. Having a zero in an attribute means it should be off limits.

That makes more sense with the rest of the CRB, where lack of a rating is different than 0 in a rating (like AR at long ranges, etc).  Matrix may be alone in this?

Your cyberjack or commlink is what directly interacts with matrix which is why it has the D/F and is the host of the Persona ... anyone can use these two devices to perform basic legal matrix actions.

Hold up, how do you perform basic legal matrix actions with just a cyberjack?  In the other thread, not even a day ago Plan_B said (and you agreed with gusto) that cyberdecks contained commlink functionality, not cyberjacks.  Cyberjacks were just a next gen interface and massive amount of computing power with nowhere to go.  It makes sense if, as I argued to him, the cyberjack should have commlink functionality, while the cyberdeck esentially weaponizes a computing platform, but you wholeheartedly agreed this was not the case - cyberdecks were the gatekeeper to the Matrix.
This bit of the text agrees with that position:

pg. 173, explaining PANs:
"On the user side, the Matrix is built around the Personal Area Network (PAN). These are networks composed of a commlink and/or a deck"

I don't know how a cyberdeck can make a PAN by itself without being able to swap its A/S to D/F.  I get the feeling that sometimes when the book says "deck" or "cyberdeck" its actually referring to the combined jack + deck.  Maybe copypasta or change blindness is to blame.

It is when you add a cyberdeck that you add A/S and open the possibility of illegal hacking actions.

Weaponizing a computer platform, like I said in the other thread!  Yes

Even ad far back as 1E you have been able to access the matrix via a datajack.. you just don't have any options that allow you to manipulate it. By extension a cyberjack is in the same-ish boat ... it has  data processing attribute so it can work as an interface much the same as a commlink but that doesn't mean has the same versatility or functionality of a commlink since it is more about raw processing power

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Even ad far back as 1E you have been able to access the matrix via a datajack..

And 5e, maybe 4e - I'd have to research to verify, altered things to where you must have a Persona to access the Matrix.

Last I checked, you can't form a Persona on a datajack (unless you use 5e Data Trails to add Persona Firmware to your Datajack).

[MercilessMing]

Even ad far back as 1E you have been able to access the matrix via a datajack.. you just don't have any options that allow you to manipulate it. By extension a cyberjack is in the same-ish boat ... it has  data processing attribute so it can work as an interface much the same as a commlink but that doesn't mean has the same versatility or functionality of a commlink since it is more about raw processing power

As basic and ubiquitous as commlinks are, I have a hard time believing this amazing piece of ware designed for high end interfacing with the matrix, this beefy engine with everything one would need for a strong persona, that would make a great well defended PAN, can't make a PAN because it can't connect to the matrix.  While the device that can't even put together a persona can.  How does a device connect to the matrix without being able to make a persona?  Neither of these devices make sense outside the context of their combination, and both of these would be solved by letting the jack connect to the matrix.
Again, Banshee, thank you for your replies and I don't want to come off like I'm attacking or putting down anyone's work.

[Banshee]

Even ad far back as 1E you have been able to access the matrix via a datajack..

And 5e, maybe 4e - I'd have to research to verify, altered things to where you must have a Persona to access the Matrix.

Last I checked, you can't form a Persona on a datajack (unless you use 5e Data Trails to add Persona Firmware to your Datajack).

The key difference is that is was established that having  D/F attributes is what allows you to create a basic persona ... cyberjacks, commlinks, and RCC's all have them do any of the 3 can create a persona and interact with the matrix and not just access it.