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Some comments from Jason Hardy on criticism of 6e

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PatrolDeer

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« Reply #15 on: <10-14-19/0701:08> »
This is my opinion on 6th edition. It is only an opinion.

1. However, I am firmly of the opinion that whoever is producing a product, regardless of the nature of that product, must learn to match consumer demands. I find this to be particularly true of RPG's, where there are a large number of alternative RPG products available in the market. Complicating that issue even more is the fact that players and GMs can home brew rules to match their desired game.

2. My personal opinion of the situation is that they were forced to push out an inferior product in an attempt to earn a profit.

3. I don't believe that the tactic they are using ... will be successful. It is highly dependent on purchasing additional materials to address the issues with the initial printing and with the current costs associated with that, no only in terms of monetary value but also needing to read, absorb, and implement the additional content, I believe that they will not see a successful implementation.

4. We love the game setting and wish to continue to play it, but don't believe it is necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on purchasing new books and materials until some of the underlying fundamental issues with the game are addressed by the game producers.

Hey Kato, nice food for thought. Following post is not to assault your opinion, just to provide a different perspective.

1. Complete market orientation can be harmful for the company. The larger consumer base the company has, the more problematic is to adjust product development to cater for everyone. In an extreme case, the product could be so skewed from all the various perspectives of customers, that in fact no customers will enjoy it. Also attempting to cater for all the customer base can lead to overload of feedback data which can cause paralysis by analysis. Thus the company might not get anywhere in their attempt to adjust the product towards all their customers.

2. I agree that it seems that the company was under pressure to release the new edition, but I wouldn't suspect only profit driven decision. From what it is stated, 6th edition is a 30th anniversary release, If I am not mistaken, anniversary editions have been done before by Shadowrun developers. The factor of time can often be neglected in product launch. Being at the market in the right time can have significant influence towards overall marketing strategy. Usually there isn't single factor responsible for a business decision, but a complex interrelated networks of influential factors.

3. I have all 3 current SR6 materials, errata pdf of Core Rule Book, Neo-Anarchist Streepedia and No Future. Non of the additional materials are necessary to play Shadowrun besides the CRB. These additional materials are extremely rule light, 90 % if not more is setting information which demands very little mechanical implementation. The main content of additional material so far are plot hooks, idea generation, setting immersion and depth, overall enhancing the role-play part of Shadowrun rather than crunch. Rigger book was announced, so mechanical expansions are to come, we will see how it goes.

4. As I mentioned in number 3, Core Rule book is what is necessary. You also stated yourself that people home brew their own editions, Shadowrun hacks based on different mechanical base are also circulating around the Matrix. However it is not necessary to spend hundreds of USD, I spend 60 bucks for 3 books. Divided by the number of players in a group, the relative weight of monetary expense is quite low.

In general, quite interesting marketing research was published in a book by Byron Sharp, called How Brands Grow. In order for a company to grow, the company has to sell more products to larger amounts of people, which in this case are new players. In addition, customers are natural switchers, playing different systems, home brewing and what not. Long standing customers tend to pick their favourites and seldom provide substantial revenue stream.

If we look at what Sixth Edition is doing, it is cutting of length, cutting of crunch, sacrificing simulation and heavy dice rolling for role play and speed. The two additional books are complementary towards this idea, as they provide less rules and more setting favouring new players.

I understand that CGL is applying Radio Silence, just going into discussions here on the forum can be quite fruitless, mentally draining and yielding no value in the end, rather creating more pressure. In addition, once something is on the internet it can spiral out of control and context extremely fast, creating harm instead of intended help and good customer service. All in all I feel that CGL at their drawing board was like: old school players will be pissed at us, sorry dudes, but if we want to keep the game going, we need to make changes and attract new players. You probably won't be happy, but you are happy with previous editions and you would be playing those anyway.

Final comment, I am not affiliated with the company, I am a Marketing student and I work for a company which is doing a lot of R&D and new product launches. Again Kato, by no means I mean this as a dismiss of your opinion, it simply sparked my thinking and I wanted to contribute with my perspective.
Cheers

« Last Edit: <10-14-19/0719:47> by PatrolDeer »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <10-14-19/1700:39> »
Reaver does bring up a good point, which I tend to forget: Parsing rules can be tough for some.
Did you just suggest that the people who dislike 6e are merely too stupid to understand it correctly?

Oh, yes, the screeching characterization was completely unwarranted... ::)
I believe penllawen needs to stop using Cram while on the forum, due to suffering from the side-effects.

Reaver said the following: "Some people just need a general feel for the rules to play, Some need the rules engraved in stone before they can." And that made me realise that I too often go 'well this is obvious, understandable and easy to handle', without realising not everyone will manage to parse several disjoint phrases together to come to how things work. Which is why I noted a FAQ is a very good idea: What is obvious for some, will not at all be for others.

I'd say the act of interpreting my words as claiming criticasters are 'too stupid to understand 6w', actually proves my point that indeed we too easily forget some people need things spelled out in more detail to be able to grasp what truly is meant. Because I cannot see any way anyone would get that from my post, especially given the FAQ statement, yet someone still failed to grasp my intent and jumped to a really strange conclusion. As such, evidence that we really can use a FAQ.

Speaking of FAQ, a personal one:
Q: "Did you just suggest that the people who dislike 6e are merely too stupid to understand it correctly?"
A: "No. I said nothing about whether people like or dislike 6w. Just that I too easily forget not everyone is skilled at rule-parsing, which I should keep in mind. Also that is why I believe a FAQ really should pop up, in other words what I meant is that I believe errata do not suffice since there are some things not everyone is capable of parsing out of the CRB."
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #17 on: <10-14-19/1732:02> »
This is my opinion on 6th edition. It is only an opinion.

1. However, I am firmly of the opinion that whoever is producing a product, regardless of the nature of that product, must learn to match consumer demands. I find this to be particularly true of RPG's, where there are a large number of alternative RPG products available in the market. Complicating that issue even more is the fact that players and GMs can home brew rules to match their desired game.




1. Complete market orientation can be harmful for the company. The larger consumer base the company has, the more problematic is to adjust product development to cater for everyone. In an extreme case, the product could be so skewed from all the various perspectives of customers, that in fact no customers will enjoy it. Also attempting to cater for all the customer base can lead to overload of feedback data which can cause paralysis by analysis. Thus the company might not get anywhere in their attempt to adjust the product towards all their customers.


I agree that a company should have some clear definitions of their primary customer segments. Wasting to much energy on secondary or tertiary segment Will risk loosing their primary segment. THAT said their Main issue is a quality issue. Bad editing, contradicting rules etc. No primary segment prefers that, so it wouldnt hurt them putting some energy in that area.
Edge, armour, fixed melee dmg, minor/major actions those are All subjective qualities, meaning various customer groups have different preferences. (I for instance like the ones Ive listed, except fixed melee dmg) In that area I think you are correct in your assessment. But no primary segment gets catered to if you put in more errors.
« Last Edit: <10-14-19/1747:35> by DigitalZombie »

Jareth Valar

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« Reply #18 on: <10-14-19/1807:33> »
Reaver does bring up a good point, which I tend to forget: Parsing rules can be tough for some.
Did you just suggest that the people who dislike 6e are merely too stupid to understand it correctly?

Oh, yes, the screeching characterization was completely unwarranted... ::)
I believe penllawen needs to stop using Cram while on the forum, due to suffering from the side-effects.

Reaver said the following: "Some people just need a general feel for the rules to play, Some need the rules engraved in stone before they can." And that made me realise that I too often go 'well this is obvious, understandable and easy to handle', without realising not everyone will manage to parse several disjoint phrases together to come to how things work. Which is why I noted a FAQ is a very good idea: What is obvious for some, will not at all be for others.

I'd say the act of interpreting my words as claiming criticasters are 'too stupid to understand 6w', actually proves my point that indeed we too easily forget some people need things spelled out in more detail to be able to grasp what truly is meant. Because I cannot see any way anyone would get that from my post, especially given the FAQ statement, yet someone still failed to grasp my intent and jumped to a really strange conclusion. As such, evidence that we really can use a FAQ.

Speaking of FAQ, a personal one:
Q: "Did you just suggest that the people who dislike 6e are merely too stupid to understand it correctly?"
A: "No. I said nothing about whether people like or dislike 6w. Just that I too easily forget not everyone is skilled at rule-parsing, which I should keep in mind. Also that is why I believe a FAQ really should pop up, in other words what I meant is that I believe errata do not suffice since there are some things not everyone is capable of parsing out of the CRB."

For what it's worth, I didn't read that in what you said either. As a matter of fact, it's a very "I understand something that may have slipped my mind in earlier things" type of statement.

As for Mr. Hardy's statement, at least he said something. You can agree or disagree with what he said, but he did respond and mentioned why you probably not hear future responses. He responded to something, you got what you wanted (for those that wanted it), now you can start complaining it's not how you wanted it, but that's a different gripe.

As for the whole SR6 thing in general, I'm staying a lurker mostly. Partially due to me not playing/running 6E and partially due to forum hypocrisy. You can have threads that  praise things based on nothing but opinion, but mention something negative based on intelligent analysis and you have committed an atrocity. It's like someone is't allowed to voice an honest opinion if it doesn't tow the party line.

For those that like 6E, I hope you enjoy, for those that don't I hope you find something that you do. Peace

Jareth Valar

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« Reply #19 on: <10-14-19/1815:55> »
Reaver does bring up a good point, which I tend to forget: Parsing rules can be tough for some.
Did you just suggest that the people who dislike 6e are merely too stupid to understand it correctly?
While I disagree with Michael and SSDR about allot on 6E this seem to me to be deliberately trying to start an argument.

Fact, some people have trouble with math. That statement does not in any way say someone is too stupid to do math.

I have an easy time with crunchy systems however I have a few friends with proven higher IQ's than me have issues with exactly those.

0B

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« Reply #20 on: <10-14-19/1904:25> »
I wasn't sure how I felt about this for awhile. Given that Jason Hardy is both the sole point of contact for PR (Unless you expect freelancers to promote the product for free), and that he is also lead developer, I think his stance is rational based on time available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's the only one who manages the Facebook page and other lines of communication for Shadowrun. However, a company that does not look at consumer feedback is doomed for failure.

If it was just Jason hardy and a bunch of freelancers, then the stance on focusing on making the next product good makes sense. My criticism there would be that it's better to slow down and spend more time on each product's quality rather than rushing them out the door as quickly as possible. Especially with tabletop RPGs, it's not like the core of your consumers are going anywhere if you don't do a complete system update every 5-6 years, and nobody can reasonably expect 2-3 splatbooks or more each year from indie press. However, comma, CGL doesn't really qualify as indie press. Shadowrun might be staffed like it, but CGL is not putting sufficient resources into it.

This makes sense as a from a short-term business perspective: the core of the consumer base isn't going anywhere. Create products that fit the minimum standards of that core base and distribute as quickly as possible for maximum profit. In the short term, it doesn't make sense to spend more money improving the quality of the book if it will not increase the number of sales. It's the double-edge of a niche consumer base: you're unlikely to lose a large amount of your base, but you're unlikely to gain a large amount of people, either.

There are two things that might've improved the quality of the book: more rounds of editing, and more playtesting. (Warning: Terrible math ahead. The short answer is that it doesn't make financial sense for CGL to improve the quality of SR in the short-term, and without any sort of creative or ambitious motivator, they won't take the risks to produce a better quality product and make more money in the long-term.)

A lot of the "change blindness" would require a developmental editor. Typos and grammatical errors can be fixed by any proofreader with a basic glossary of game terminology. I checked a few sites for rates on editors- I may be off, since most of them were for novel editors. I also ignored a lot of the per-page rates, since game books have bigger pages. Developmental editors were 2.5 to 9 cents/word and proofreaders were 1 to 2 cents/word. A quick word count on my copy of 6e puts us at about 202,000 words (Give or take some, I just C+V'ed my PDF copy into word for the word count, it might've grabbed page numbers). Ignoring the time factor, this puts us at about $5,050 to $18,180 for one pass from the developmental editor, and $2,020 to $4,040 for a pass from the proofreader. Just going by ebook sales, if they're making 65% profit off of their DTRPG number, then they'll get $13 per copy sold. Based on costs of shipping and markup, this is probably pretty close to what they make for their hard copies, but I'm unsure about that so I'm not going to speculate there.

So then the question is: Would another round of proofreading bring in another 155 - 310 sales? Would a round of developmental editing bring in another 388 - 1,398 sales? An editor at 9 cents/word seems on the high end for the TTRPG industry, but keep in mind that you will get what you pay for. A well-edited book would have alleviated a lot of the concerns people have with the edition, that's true. But there are other issues that editing wouldn't solve- namely, new game mechanics and weaknesses in those new mechanics.

This is where additional playtesting would come in. This is very much a time-based thing, and would have to be handled in-house by developers. Let's say that CGL an intern handle communication and any setup (Paid, hopefully- but likely at $7.25/hour), and also has Jason Hardy involved- it doesn't make sense to do playtesting if you don't have any decision makers involved whatsoever. For now, I'm not going to factor in Mr. Hardy's salary because he's also busy being lead developer, PR manager, and Facebook manager due to staffing issues with CGL. I'm going to assume playtesters are volunteers or perhaps unpaid interns that the paid intern lords over.

For good playtesting, you can't just send the quickstart rules and a survey. This worked with DND Next because it was an "open" playtest and they had a ton of playtesters. You can also bet they did some closed playtesting, too. For this playtesting, someone needs to observe and take notes. I'm assuming the best possible scenario where they're only looking at one table at a time, so that they don't miss things.

Each session is going to be maybe four hours, maybe shorter depending on what's being tested. This is maybe 30 minutes of setup/prep at the beginning, a 3 hour session (interspersed with pauses for questions/clarification as needed), and then 30 minutes discussion at the end. It's also 4 hours in my example because then I can say this intern does 2 of these per day, meaning 10 in a week. Ignoring any basic costs for renting space for the playtest (Or maybe have it over skype), this ends up costing CGL $290 for 10 playtests, or $29/playtest. 10 playtests also costs them a week of time, plus whatever time is needed to implement changes. Although this is likely inaccurate, let's say that each playtest comes up with, on average, 333 words that need to be rewritten. Why? Because CGL likely pays 3 cents/word and $10 is easy to add. This is likely an overestimate, but keep in mind the new words will also need to be proofed and edited. So the total cost of each playtest comes up to $39.

Let's do this for 10 weeks- we get 100 playtests in, at a cost of $3,900. To recoup this, CGL must sell 300 copies, and delay release by 10 weeks. There are more efficient ways of playtesting, in a shorter amount of time, but I don't think the quality would improve unless you put more people on it or spend more time on the rewrite. Would 100 additional playtests improve the quality of the book enough so that 300 additional people would buy it?

Now, this number is even more uncertain than the editing one: I have no idea how CGL runs playtests, their effectiveness, overall cost per playtest, etc.

So, based on my shit-tier math we would need to spend $26,120 to fix the rules weaknesses, change blindness, typos, and other editing issues. This would require another 2,009 sales to break even. This is only a portion of their sales, but SR6We is currently sitting in the "platinum" tier (1,000 - 2,000 sales) on DTRPG. I don't have a way of finding SR 6We's total sales across all platforms, but I'm guessing it's at least 5,000 - 10,000 total. Either way, this would require a sizable increase in their customer base. So in the short-term, it's better to stick to the minimum basic requirements needed to maintain the core customer base.

HOWEVER, comma, there are long-term issues with only doing the minimum. Although it's unlikely that the core customer base for Shadowrun products will disappear completely, it's entirely possible that core consumers will stick to the editions they already have, go to older versions, or jump ship completely. If players stick to what they already have, then it's a loss for CGL. If they go to older versions, then if CGL controls those versions (IE, 5e), then CGL will not lose money, but it won't improve 6w's sales, either, and will hurt them in the long run... Nobody's going to purchase the 6w Rigger book if  they don't have the 6e CRB. It's also possible that they're hard cover fans, and will buy used books on the cheap rather than get the print-on-demand stuff. And if they jump ship, CGL sees none of that. It's hard to get back a consumer base without significant improvements- dumpshock is very small at this point, but there's more than a few groups of SR players who stopped purchasing new editions after 4e, WAR! or 5e came out. It's true that CGL can't take credit for all of that, and that in other TTRPGs there are groups that still stick to the original systems put out in the 80s and 90s. But I think SR has a larger crowd doing this than most.

I don't think 6wE will cause CGL or the Shadowrun brand to fold, or close up shop. Even if it starts making less money, that just means CGL puts less money into it. It might revert back to Topps after 5-10 years of decline, until some other sucker tries to pick it up and make a new edition. But in the meantime, it means that the SR community will shrink, and there will be even more loss of freelancers, writers, and editors with a solid knowledge of the IP. SR 8e created by the Whatevername LLC will not be the same product.

But, I'm keeping up my optimism on the unpaid errata team producing more errata, which is doing the job that pays thousands of dollars for free.

And let's look at the other side of things: Let's say that CGL did drop 26 grand onto 6e. The delayed release may have hurt them a little on the marketing side, but I don't think it'd be too much. CPRed left people in anticipation of the core book, which won't be out for awhile, so there may be people looking to "get their fix" from a shadowrun game in the mean time. If, say, the editing, proofing, and playtesting got 6e to the quality/popularity of the CPRed QSR, it would've put them into Adamantine Tier (5000+). Maybe less if there were more FLGS purchases/CGL site purchases, etc. Either way, that's at least 3000 additional purchases, for a sum of 39k. That's a $13,000 net profit. That's also an additional 3000 potential customers for all the splatbooks, sourcebooks, adventure modules, and what have you.

But it is a risk- if all of that either didn't improve the quality (Or improved the quality but didn't improve popularity), then CGL would be 26k down the drain. Even if my numbers above were terribly off (10k? 50k?), it's a clear risk: will putting more effort into the quality of the product increase its customers?

I had a point here, relevant to the question of customer outreach. If we go back to our paid intern, and pay them $7.25 an hour to spend 10 hours/week addressing concerns (About an hour each day, just to get the important stuff and reach out to developers as needed), then it would cost them about $3,770 per year (They're a part-timer, so no health insurance or anything to worry about). The question here is: would having a dedicated PR/Customer outreach intern bring in at least 290 additional sales each year, either on 6e or another Shadowrun product?

To sum up: Once, I was at a Wendy's during the afternoon- it wasn't too busy, but it took about 20 minutes to get my order done. Why? Because there was only one employee there, managing both the drive-thru and the register. I don't blame the employee for the store being understaffed and the meal taking too long. I agree that it's too much to have the lead developer also be the primary PR for a large product. I don't think the solution is "Jason Hardy needs to get better at his job," I think it's "CGL needs to take risks and put more resources into the Shadowrun IP if they want to grow the brand." I don't have any clear answers for the financial/business questions, but I don't have the full picture of CGL's business, either. I just wanted to put things into perspective for why I think things are the way they are with the Shadowrun brand.

Also: Is it 6We or 6w? 6we?

Kato

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« Reply #21 on: <10-14-19/1912:02> »
This is my opinion on 6th edition. It is only an opinion.

1. However, I am firmly of the opinion that whoever is producing a product, regardless of the nature of that product, must learn to match consumer demands. I find this to be particularly true of RPG's, where there are a large number of alternative RPG products available in the market. Complicating that issue even more is the fact that players and GMs can home brew rules to match their desired game.

2. My personal opinion of the situation is that they were forced to push out an inferior product in an attempt to earn a profit.

3. I don't believe that the tactic they are using ... will be successful. It is highly dependent on purchasing additional materials to address the issues with the initial printing and with the current costs associated with that, no only in terms of monetary value but also needing to read, absorb, and implement the additional content, I believe that they will not see a successful implementation.

4. We love the game setting and wish to continue to play it, but don't believe it is necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on purchasing new books and materials until some of the underlying fundamental issues with the game are addressed by the game producers.

Hey Kato, nice food for thought. Following post is not to assault your opinion, just to provide a different perspective.

1. Complete market orientation can be harmful for the company. The larger consumer base the company has, the more problematic is to adjust product development to cater for everyone. In an extreme case, the product could be so skewed from all the various perspectives of customers, that in fact no customers will enjoy it. Also attempting to cater for all the customer base can lead to overload of feedback data which can cause paralysis by analysis. Thus the company might not get anywhere in their attempt to adjust the product towards all their customers.

2. I agree that it seems that the company was under pressure to release the new edition, but I wouldn't suspect only profit driven decision. From what it is stated, 6th edition is a 30th anniversary release, If I am not mistaken, anniversary editions have been done before by Shadowrun developers. The factor of time can often be neglected in product launch. Being at the market in the right time can have significant influence towards overall marketing strategy. Usually there isn't single factor responsible for a business decision, but a complex interrelated networks of influential factors.

3. I have all 3 current SR6 materials, errata pdf of Core Rule Book, Neo-Anarchist Streepedia and No Future. Non of the additional materials are necessary to play Shadowrun besides the CRB. These additional materials are extremely rule light, 90 % if not more is setting information which demands very little mechanical implementation. The main content of additional material so far are plot hooks, idea generation, setting immersion and depth, overall enhancing the role-play part of Shadowrun rather than crunch. Rigger book was announced, so mechanical expansions are to come, we will see how it goes.

4. As I mentioned in number 3, Core Rule book is what is necessary. You also stated yourself that people home brew their own editions, Shadowrun hacks based on different mechanical base are also circulating around the Matrix. However it is not necessary to spend hundreds of USD, I spend 60 bucks for 3 books. Divided by the number of players in a group, the relative weight of monetary expense is quite low.

In general, quite interesting marketing research was published in a book by Byron Sharp, called How Brands Grow. In order for a company to grow, the company has to sell more products to larger amounts of people, which in this case are new players. In addition, customers are natural switchers, playing different systems, home brewing and what not. Long standing customers tend to pick their favourites and seldom provide substantial revenue stream.

If we look at what Sixth Edition is doing, it is cutting of length, cutting of crunch, sacrificing simulation and heavy dice rolling for role play and speed. The two additional books are complementary towards this idea, as they provide less rules and more setting favouring new players.

I understand that CGL is applying Radio Silence, just going into discussions here on the forum can be quite fruitless, mentally draining and yielding no value in the end, rather creating more pressure. In addition, once something is on the internet it can spiral out of control and context extremely fast, creating harm instead of intended help and good customer service. All in all I feel that CGL at their drawing board was like: old school players will be pissed at us, sorry dudes, but if we want to keep the game going, we need to make changes and attract new players. You probably won't be happy, but you are happy with previous editions and you would be playing those anyway.

Final comment, I am not affiliated with the company, I am a Marketing student and I work for a company which is doing a lot of R&D and new product launches. Again Kato, by no means I mean this as a dismiss of your opinion, it simply sparked my thinking and I wanted to contribute with my perspective.
Cheers

I certainly won't take it as a dismissal. I'm more than happy to have a conversation that examines the economics behind Shadowrun and the current RPG market in general! I find it interesting how current markets forces are shaping the RPG market, for better or worse.

I am trying to find an article that I read a while ago, but I'm having trouble locating it. If I find it I will post the reference, but to summarize, it reflected on how the "original" target market for table top RPG's was aging out and that companies which still produced table top style materials were having difficulty attracting new consumers. The main reason behind this was the video game alternatives to table top RPG's. As a side note I think this is why 4th Edition D&D was created the way it was...sort of an attempt to create some of the WOW market with a table top version. At least that is always what it seemed to me when I played it.

Organic growth is certainly achieved when a company is able to sell more product to a larger market than it previously had, but I'm not sure if that is what is happening here. I feel like many many RPG's are playing a defensive strategy, just attempting to maintain market share. Shadowrun seems to be struggling to find an identity in today's market place. There was an interesting video on Youtube that had some of the writers examining the way certain things in Shadowrun are phasing out due to shifts in societal perceptions of what is considered high tech. For instance, the credstick, which may have been seen as futuristic and cool in the 80's and early 90's, is almost archaic and seen as a form of untraceable currency rather than the future of the way our currency will be handled. With that in mind, Shadowrun has always sought to be a cyberpunk/fantasy crossover with futuristic overtones. I'm just not sure it is putting image across with new players.

I think that the major problem that Shadowrun will face in the future is with the change in the way new generations will view product quality. As I'm sure you know, the generation that is moving in to fill the current consumer markets are brand insensitive. They are quality and price sensitive, which presents a problem in the manner that Catalyst is producing their printed product. I think that Catalyst needs to solve their editing issues above all. It makes the finished product look inferior and like it was rushed through production. For a market that is not necessarily married to any brand, but considers "bang for the buck", the quality issues that plague Shadowrun printed materials may prove to be a major thorn in their side.

Above all, I believe that the creators truly need to start addressing the issues being brought up by critics, even if they do not believe that those critics represent the market as a whole. There is that old saying about how a good services will be shared with additional person but a bad service will be shared with ten additional people. In my particular case, I am one of the ten people who have not been convinced to purchase any 6th edition materials. I'll admit I bought the 6th edition starter box, because it was the only product out at the time. But then I started listening to people who were playing 6th edition when the additional resources came out and the reviews were, at best, mixed. I became lukewarm in my desire to purchase additional materials due to those mixed reviews. The radio silence initiated is not helping that cause at all.

Sorry it was long winded! I rarely get to engage in the economic/business side of the RPG world. I'm usually made to due those mundane things like come up with story lines and plot hooks...you know...boring stuff haha.

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #22 on: <10-14-19/1913:57> »
THAT said their Main issue is a quality issue. Bad editing, contradicting rules etc. No primary segment prefers that, so it wouldnt hurt them putting some energy in that area.
...those are All subjective qualities, meaning various customer groups have different preferences.
But no primary segment gets catered to if you put in more errors.

Thanks for your response. I agree with you on this 100%. We can only assume what led the company to roll out even if the game is flawed, using words of Mr. Hardy. My assumption is that similar competing products were to hit the market and CGL announced SR6 going out, so they simply had to go for it and suffer the cluster fragg.
First errata is out and folks here are gathering data for second one. Let's see where it goes. Hopefully the amount of errors decrease and the clarity will increase.

You can have threads that  praise things based on nothing but opinion, but mention something negative based on intelligent analysis and you have committed an atrocity. It's like someone is't allowed to voice an honest opinion if it doesn't tow the party line.

For those that like 6E, I hope you enjoy, for those that don't I hope you find something that you do. Peace

I mean no harm sir. I just want to say that there seem to be cases where the analysis gets blown out of proportion to an extent in which people from the Demo team are (from the readers perspective) almost ignored in the discussion. I would compare it to patients ignoring the doctor, even though it might be a far fetched example. That is another side of the barricade. As Mr. Hardy said, time will show and it's up to players to decide what they like or don't.

It is an interesting thought though, to look at various communication channels (forums, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Discord ) as separate "hosts", which might not reflect the actual consumer base, because there are more lurkers running silent on the Matrix or AR vertigo folks which just don't go to such hosts and voice their opinions.


ZeroSum

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« Reply #23 on: <10-14-19/1954:07> »
@0B
Just wanted to say thanks for your post. Fascinating train of thought.

0B

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« Reply #24 on: <10-14-19/2041:03> »
@0B
Just wanted to say thanks for your post. Fascinating train of thought.

I appreciate it- I think the train hopped the track, meandered through the woods, and then remembered it was a train, though...

Still, it bothers me that there's this idea in the TTRPG industry, and writing in general, that "nobody does this to make money." It's not true- someone's making money, just not the ones creating the product.

That's why I always despise when criticism of a game system turns into criticism of the developers and writers. In game dev, you balance quality, number of features, and resources. With a crunchy system like SR, your resources of time and money are already strained, so you need a significant amount of resources if you want high quality.

Plan_B

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« Reply #25 on: <10-15-19/0127:15> »
@0B
Just wanted to say thanks for your post. Fascinating train of thought.

I appreciate it- I think the train hopped the track, meandered through the woods, and then remembered it was a train, though...

Still, it bothers me that there's this idea in the TTRPG industry, and writing in general, that "nobody does this to make money." It's not true- someone's making money, just not the ones creating the product.

That's why I always despise when criticism of a game system turns into criticism of the developers and writers. In game dev, you balance quality, number of features, and resources. With a crunchy system like SR, your resources of time and money are already strained, so you need a significant amount of resources if you want high quality.
As someone who works in software development, I can tell you that this isn’t limited to just games. My life would be a lot easier if it was, believe me.
When the "milk run" goes sour, it's time for Plan B!

Plan_B

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« Reply #26 on: <10-15-19/0155:45> »
One thing not mentioned about delays is the potential for it to cascade. A delay in getting a product ready for printing by just two weeks can potentially lead to months of delays in printing as the printer can’t just fudge their other obligations to make room for your delay. You go to the back of the line if you don’t make your production window and get printed when there is an opening for your product. This also then leads to additional potential delays in shipping as you have to wait for availability on a cargo ship. This potentially increases costs as well as fuel prices can go up and you have to warehouse the books until they can be shipped. Then, of course, you are looking at who knows how long for the books to clear Customs. It is very possible that any delay in getting to the printers meant not only missing a soft launch at GenCon but also meant a chance of missing a launch at all during the 30th Anniversary year at all. That could have been far worse than releasing a flawed product.


It’s fair to criticize some of the errors. It’s not fair to assume CGL doesn’t give a drek about the product because it was released with flaws. There’s a lot that goes into the supply chain management that most people don’t know anything about. Sometimes it really is better to release something you know needs work on time than to release far outside your best release window. Trust me, we do it with software every single day.
When the "milk run" goes sour, it's time for Plan B!

wraith

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« Reply #27 on: <10-15-19/0549:32> »
I'm curious at what point he would feel a need to say something.

I mean, when the DTRPG ratings, which can only be offered by people who own the book are rapidly dropping over time and hovering around 2.5 now...

It's easy to blame toxic communities for feedback when you don't want to hear, much less admit, that a product you put out isn't up to snuff.

FastJack

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« Reply #28 on: <10-15-19/0805:00> »
I'm curious at what point he would feel a need to say something.

I mean, when the DTRPG ratings, which can only be offered by people who own the book are rapidly dropping over time and hovering around 2.5 now...

It's easy to blame toxic communities for feedback when you don't want to hear, much less admit, that a product you put out isn't up to snuff.
And yet, the sales are still going up. Weird how that is.

Ajax

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« Reply #29 on: <10-15-19/0818:53> »
After over thirty years of roelplaying, wargaming, and generally living the geek life, I've come to one iron-clad conclusion about new editions, new factions, new sequels to geeky films, or whatever...

33% of the fan base will declare the new edition to be terrible and shout that the game has been Ruined Forever!

33% of the fan base will declare the new edition to be excelled and shout that the game has been Perfected At Last!

34% of the fan base will decide that the new edition has some pro's and some con's; Mostly they just want the other two groups to Shut Up So We Can Play!
Evil looms. Cowboy up. Kill it. Get paid.