[taukarrie]

Choosing logic or charisma as your tradition stat appears to be the only comparison between the two, which I guess can be spun into a discussion about how one is better at certain skills than the other. But beyond that is there any difference any more? They both have the same spells and now seem to each have access to all of the spirits. The old totem rules have been turned into the optional mentor spirit quality and the cost and method for acquiring all spells, materials and training are the same.

So is this now just a choice made mostly for role playing purposes now? I feel like that leads to min/maxer mages always picking an elf shaman since there are no races with boosted logic.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Choosing logic or charisma as your tradition stat appears to be the only comparison between the two, which I guess can be spun into a discussion about how one is better at certain skills than the other. But beyond that is there any difference any more? They both have the same spells and now seem to each have access to all of the spirits. The old totem rules have been turned into the optional mentor spirit quality and the cost and method for acquiring all spells, materials and training are the same.

So is this now just a choice made mostly for role playing purposes now? I feel like that leads to min/maxer mages always picking an elf shaman since there are no races with boosted logic.

Yes, but "now" is a rather relative term.  This has been the case since the onset of 4th edition, so this has been true "now" for the third edition in a row, and for almost 15 real-world years...

[CigarSmoker]

I dont think thats mentionend in the CRB but Mentor Spirit is part of being shaman.

As long as the Analytical Mind quality stays as cheap and powerful you can not say Elf Shamans are the better choice. Free Edge on Logic Drain tests is very good.

[Michael Chandra]

SR4 explicitly stated "Each tradition can master five types of spirits." In SR5, there was a big implication that you were restricted to only the 5 spirits of your tradition, even if it wasn't explicitly stated. However, the UMT ability that we got late on in the edition was very explicit about adding a spirit type, meaning that in fact as far as that book was concerned, the RAI indeed was 'traditions only get their 5 types' and the lack of explicit statement was a mistake. So Stainless isn't right, the complete release of Spirit-type-tradition-restriction is an SR6-specific thing.

That said, I rather like that tradition is more a matter of roleplay rather than a game-balance thing. In previous editions Shaman and Hermetics were actually both inferior to some other traditions, due to the spirit-types.

[taukarrie]

SR4 explicitly stated "Each tradition can master five types of spirits." In SR5, there was a big implication that you were restricted to only the 5 spirits of your tradition, even if it wasn't explicitly stated. However, the UMT ability that we got late on in the edition was very explicit about adding a spirit type, meaning that in fact as far as that book was concerned, the RAI indeed was 'traditions only get their 5 types' and the lack of explicit statement was a mistake. So Stainless isn't right, the complete release of Spirit-type-tradition-restriction is an SR6-specific thing.

That said, I rather like that tradition is more a matter of roleplay rather than a game-balance thing. In previous editions Shaman and Hermetics were actually both inferior to some other traditions, due to the spirit-types.

Ok, thanks. The mechanical divide between the traditions has been closing gradually over time. I was just surprised to see it completely gone as of 6E and wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something.

[Michael Chandra]

Not the first time it came up, no worries.

[Arkas]

I dont think thats mentionend in the CRB but Mentor Spirit is part of being shaman.

As far as I know, that was only true for the first half of SR editions. In SR4-6 that was not the case unless you got the quality. However I am not opposed to be proven wrong there, should I be mistaken.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Neither 5th nor 6we restrict Mentor Spirits to Shamans.

In fact, it's surely not the intent but 6we doesn't even restrict the Mentor Spirit quality (nor the corresponding "everyone" bonus) to magicians.

[Xenon]

Advantages of being hermetic magician vs shamanistic magician:
Astral Initiative(!)
Logic is also a defensive stat (defense pool during unarmed astral combat and resist a few spellls)

Advantages of being shamanistic magician vs hermetic magician:
Number of Minions (Watchers, but not spirits!) during Rituals and all but three Mentor Spirits use Charisma.

[Arkas]

Same goes for SR4, no?

The fact that Mentor Spirit was conceived to actually be of some use for mundanes and awakened alike was a nice addition in my opinion. I do like the flexibility of classless systems.

[Ajax]

You also really can’t undervalue the roleplaying aspects of the Hermetic versus Shamanic divide.

Corporations and government officials in the sprawl are generally going to be more comfortable dealing with Hermetics; the logical, rational, “scientific,” and often university educated salaryman just understands the wage-mage more.

Conversely, tribal governments and street-level sprawlers will feel more at ease when dealing with Shamans: emotional, intuitive, “natural,” and often highly empathetic Shamans just tend to gel better with people living outside the corporate monolith.

[Xenon]

Same goes for SR4, no?

No.
In previous edition your unarmed astral damage was based on Charisma, for example. Now you instead use your tradition attribute. There are very few things that depend on Logic or Charisma in this edition (I listed all of them above).

The main difference between a Shamanistic Magician and a Hermetic Magician is style.

[Shinobi Killfist]

While I prefer the significant differences in 1-3e once those were removed I prefer the 6e almost no difference method.

What’s better spontaneous summoning or ritual elementals summoning. Hard to say both have advantages and disadvantages. I preferred the shaman style others really tried to max out a pile of elementals. I thought it was weird to spend 40k on that but so be it.

But once they were very similar shamans just were better. They bind more spirits, were better in the astral, their linked attribute tied to more generally usable skills etc. now it’s pretty much do you prefer logic or charisma.  As they almost the same mages are a bit better in the astral shamans have a more generally usable skill list. I’d probably still give the edge to shamans but it’s close enough not to not really matter.

[Xenon]

While I prefer the significant differences in 1-3e once those were removed I prefer the 6e almost no difference method.

Agreed.

[easl]

There are very few things that depend on Logic or Charisma in this edition (I listed all of them above).

Well...you listed all the magic differences.  A Hermetic build is likely to have more knowledge skills and be better at skills with the Logic linked attribute. A shaman build is likely to have more contacts and be better at skills with Charisma as the linked attribute.  So tradition can make a big difference in terms of your mage's "second" dimension.