[Arkas]

Sorry for not bothering to quote all the naysayers no offense intended.

So, first for some RAW facts:
 - I do not find anything, that states for SS to fire a single bullet per combat round. I just says "you fire a single bullet".

 - The "Multiple Attacks" minor action states: "A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it." This does by no means state anything about fire mode.

 - Quoting the BF Mode: "or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot."

 - Quoting the FA Mode: "This mode allows multiple attacks without using the Multiple Attack Minor Action."

My conclusions:
Yes, I can in fact use the multiple attacks action without a minor action, when using FA. Also can I attack multiple targets with one burst (a wide one in that case). It also seems perfectly possible to do multiple attacks with an SS weapon, using the rules for the multiple attacks minor action. Multiple attacks can be performed with an SS gun as long as there are enough bullets loaded, the targets are in range and can be fired upon.

To me it seems, that some of you are still thinking this the SR5 way, where indeed you could not do multiple attacks per phase, shooting a SS gun. However, you could shoot a SS gun once per action phase, of which a reflex boosted shooter would often have more than one, shooting the gun several times a turn. In SR6 now you usually only have one major action, while being able to achieve the equivalent of 2 major actions. In terms of using a major and the "multiple attacks" minor action to shoot the SS gun several times per turn, the thing that changed most is, that doing so, will force you to split your pool - unless you can and will use another major action.

As for the other firing modes... FA and BF do obviously allow for multiple attacks on more than one target and that either partially (BF) or completely (FA) without use of the multiple attacks minor action (especially since this is the whole point of FA in the first place. SA, as a side note, will likely have the inclusion of an SS option listed in some future errata as far as I can say. SA can do multiple SS or SA attacks, using the "multiple attacks" minor action, same as SS does.

If you would like to disagree on the raw side of things, please quote or point directly to the rules that prove your point - as far as I can tell, I did. You may certainly have a different opinion, those do not yet change the rules however.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Here's the part that makes me say that SA cannot use multi-attack (barring dual-wielding 2 SA guns, of course):

SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger
pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon
by 2 and increase damage by 1.
BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple
rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire
four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow
burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and
increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and
split your dice pool between two targets and count
each as a SA-mode shot.

The wide burst option for BF fire is bolded.  Literally, word for word, the extent of what a wide burst is: the option to use multi-attack and use the rules for SA for those attacks.

So, if you allow SA to make multi-attacks, what you're saying is that every SA gun also has access to the BF wide burst option.  And that can't be right.

[Xenon]

If you fire a weapon in SS mode then you only fire one single bullet.

SR6 p. 109 Firing Mode
SS: You fire a single bullet. There are no changes to a weapon’s attributes with a single shot.


One bullet is not enough ammunition to allow you to hit more than one target.

SR6 p. 42 Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.


How can this still be under debate?

[Xenon]

The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.


The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.


BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.


The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.


BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

Yes. This is all Rules Lawyering 101, and it's the 100% correct way to Rules Lawyer.

Furthermore, the example of BF's wide burst says that the effect of multi-attacking dilutes the AR debuff and DV buff down to those values of SA. And this makes perfect sense: 2 bullets works like 2 bullets. 

Presumably, a hypothetical SA multiattack should count as two SS attacks, yet that's absolutely not stated.  Nor should it make any sense that a SA burst, if multi-attacked to allocate 1 bullet each to 2 targets, should still have the AR and DV of 2 bullet bursts.

[Ajax]

(I really wish someone would sit down with Shadowrun’s designers and explain the difference between semi-automatic loading firearms and automatic firing firearms.)

[Xenon]

The difference is that a semi automatic weapon fire one bullet each time you pull the trigger. During one major action you may double tap to fire a total of two bullets at a single target. This will increase damage value by one but reduce attack rating by 2.

While full auto fire bullets while you keep the trigger pulled. During one major action you fire 10 bullets that you may divide among different bursts (without spending an extra minor action). Recoil is pretty hard to control in this firing mode so your attack rating is reduced by 6.

[Ajax]

I’m well aware of how it works; My aside was addressing the way that RPG authors tend to confuse or conflate the two concepts.

[Arkas]

The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.

True story, and I agree.

The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.

I do not read anything about two weapons being needed for this. Maybe I have missed it, could you kindly point me to that rule?

BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

I see where you are coming from here, and that makes at least some sense. However, the fire modes do explain what you get for using 1 major action (Attack) with them. You can use the minor action "Multiple Attacks" in conjunction with that to split your pools on multiple attacks as they are described. It is a simple >> Major(do this) + Minor(modify Major) thing. However (again ), the mention of this not taking an extra minor action should be in some upcoming errata. It is in the german version of the book at least.

FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.

Yes this is likely to be mentioned explicitly as it is essentially the exact same extended functionality, that the "Multiple Attacks" minor action provides, while the wide burst is doing something else, as it is limited or better put, exactly telling you that you may do exactly two SA attacks, spread over exactly two different targets. It's what it does.

But all in all it does give me more perspective on how you think it works. You seem to interpret firing modes as telling you IF the weapon may use the "Multiple Attacks" minor action, while in my opinion it is established, that the "Multiple Attacks" minor action can be used with any "Attack" major action. Ammunition does account on a limiter should the gun hold too little ammo to fire again, no more no less. With SS you would for example not hit two targets with one bullet or one target twice with the same bullet, instead you fire that gun again, same as you fire a SA again with another double tap. This is also why the advantage of FA is supposed to be not needing an extra minor, as you just keep holding that trigger down.

[Michael Chandra]

No, the rules are very explicit on how you can perform Multiple Attacks with a single gun. You don't get to attack twice with a Singleshot gun, because its rules do not support that. It's not a matter of 'anything that doesn't explicitly outlaw multiple attacks allows it', either you dualwield or you use an attack that is capable of it. And with firearm modes, they explain how you're capable of it. Just like you can't go 'I'll attack 10 people with 1 BF-attack because it never says that's not possible', and you can't go 'hey I'm going to fire my guns 10 times in 1 turn with Anticipation'. Telling others they 'seem to interpret' something this way doesn't make your case any more valid, and I strongly recommend you do not try to pollute your GM's mind with your reasoning.

As for the German book: First of all, Pegasus is NOT a reliable source for english Shadowrun errata, and I haven't seen an errata team member say 'this will be covered' that suggests your interpretation might be valid. Second, if you're going to use it as source in a rule debate, please actually quote the exact content.

The following errata we actually expect:
- Anticipation: clarifying its intent and curtailing some of its more abusive usecases
- SS mode: SA-weapons are supposed to be able to fire SS-style, like in the QSR
The exact phrasing we don't know at this point, and are eagerly awaiting.
 
As for the whole debate here:

Rulewise: Multiple Attacks is mentioned twice in the rules. The Minor Action explicitly mentions 'more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it'. It notes to combine with an Attack Major Action. On p111, the section mentions several possible examples, but none of these are 'use the same weapon twice'. It does, however, explicitly cover dualwielding.

Firing modes come with specific options, some of which are Multiple Attacks. Of these, FA mentions it doesn't require the Minor to be used. On the other hand, BF makes no such mention so a wide burst requires the Multiple Attacks Minor.

Nowhere at any point do the rules say 'you can attack twice with the same weapon with Multiple Attacks'. So no, this is not a legal action.

What I find insidious here is the attempt to rulelawyer this scenario when there is no actual need for it: Nothing's stopping you from dualwielding. In fact, one of the dualwielding examples explicitly overrides the claim that you can just use the same weapon twice: It talks about wielding two swords. There would be no use for that if you could swing the same sword twice. So I find it very suspect why you would even try to argue this way, when there is literally nothing in the rules that suggest using the same weapon twice in 1 Attack is even allowed.

And I feel sorry for any GM you're going to try to push this rulelawyering on, because your 'well you interpret this' posts suggest you will stop at nothing to force your attempted loopholes onto GMs. I strongly recommend you stop doing that, because you are violating one of the biggest rules: You're supposed to be playing TOGETHER. This isn't a competition as to who can twist the rules the best way to force their gameplay through.

[Arkas]

Woaw, Michael, sorry if I am mistaken due to the nature of written communication, but you seem a bit on the heated side.

First and foremost neither am I bearing any ill intend here, nor am I trying to fabricate anything against better knowledge, in fact the opposite is true. "This rulelawyering I am trying to push" is my honest understanding of what I have read in SR6 so far. For my part I never assumed, that viewpoints contradicting mine in this, were in anyway malicious, just because I think they are in the wrong. when I am asking to be pointed to the rule that clearly proves one point or another, I actually mean it, because yes, it could be I have overlooked something. Yes, I could be absolutely wrong, so could you be. It seems though we are convinced of our interpretations of what RAW actually is trying to tell us. Those are, I would say, the reasons why we are discussing.

As for my GM and / or my players, do not feel sorry for them, as there is no need to (neither would it be appropriate). In the end the GM decides at the table, and the group discusses away from the table. This particular topic will not even be all to important for us.

My comment on the german version of the rules was not even what I based my point on, it was rather why I expect clarification there. Pegasus, as anyone else really is not above making mistakes, but so far I am being told that the changes in there are official. Not saying anyone is perfect, just trying to be positive and using a little experience from SR5.

Nowhere at any point do the rules say 'you can attack twice with the same weapon with Multiple Attacks'. So no, this is not a legal action.

Look, I do understand how the whole rule thing works. That being said, I also know, that not everything is allowed, just because it is not explicitly covered. Yet, what I read is, that multiple attacks are generally allowed as described by the rules for multiple attacks. In the rules I do not find anything telling me, I can only attack once per weapon each turn (if you find such a rule please, please point me to it). If that would be the case, it would be very interesting to mention. Mainly because it is possible to actually perform two major actions and only secondly because of the minor action. In SR5 the limitations of attack actions were actually mentioned.

Further more you seem to pretend what I am saying is some weird outlandish stuff, while it is not (no matter who is correct in the end). Because attacking multiple times a turn, using the same weapon has been a perfectly normal idea in since SR1 (and freakishly more powerful at times).

Well, anyway, at this point we can either continue this discussion, in which case I would ask you not to, quote: "polute", it. Or we are at a point of ongoing hostility and just leave it at that and wait. The latter would be a shame of sorts, as I was hoping for a more conclusive end to this... but maybe time will tell then anyway.

With that, I send you my regards, have a nice one.

[CigarSmoker]

[...], as I was hoping for a more conclusive end to this... but maybe time will tell then anyway.[...]

all the rules were quoted. What remains is - as i already wrote - a grey area.

Your understanding might well be the way it is intended  - and maybe - will get official some day. But I hope that what the majority in this Thread wrote is the RAI.

The following things are to be changed if your reading is RAI:

- The whole section about "Wide burst" (21 words p.109) is useless. You can just fire twice with SA mode for the same effect.

- you get 1 point of "recoil" or reduced Attack Rating for firing twice using SA mode, but you dont get such a Recoil for firing twice using your double Single Shot interpretation. That would be a mistake in the rules.

- "Ambidextrous" quality would be almost useless (as you already wrote it is in your interpretation) it only costs 4 Karma but "Analytical Mind" costs 3 Karma. So Power is not equal Karma cost but Ambidextrous would be better off as "Fluff" then since its usefullness is already questionable in the current RAI as I read the RAI.

[Xenon]

What Arkas is saying is that if your SS weapon have 15 bullets in the magazine then you are allowed to fire all 15 in one action.

This is in direct contradicting to the rule that SS only fire one single bullet. Therefore this reading is not correct. Period.


This is how the rules are written (and also how it was resolved in previous editions):

If you fire a weapon in SS mode then you only fire one single bullet.

SR6 p. 109 Firing Mode
SS: You fire a single bullet. There are no changes to a weapon’s attributes with a single shot.


One bullet is not enough ammunition to allow you to hit more than one target.

SR6 p. 42 Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.

[Banshee]

Ok, time to chime in with some official weight capacity here ... (i don't often do this but) ..Arkas check the credits page and you will see my name there a few times so take this as official as it gets without coming from Jason Hardy himself

The ammunition limit on multiple attacks is based on how many bullets a weapon can fire in a single action and NOT on how many it holds

The rest of the arguments are at least somewhat interpretive and does not effect overall game balance so play as you group sees fit

[Arkas]

Hey, thank you Banshee.

With that being said, I would claim (and hope we can agree on) that especially the part about ammunition in multiple attacks should be worded differently.