[skalchemist]

So back to the question, assuming I have cybereyes and I'm running a smartgun link wirelessly, because that cable is just so old school, can the hacker who penetrates my PAN take out my entire cybereye, or just the smartgun link?

Yes. Anything connected to the network can be a target

Just to follow up on some questions I have asked in other threads, and absolutely understand this, this is how I would see the mechanics around the scenario in which poor SDTroll's cybereye gets bricked...

Assume the following: SDTroll has a Decker protecting him, that has linked SDTroll's PAN to the Decker's PAN. 

1) Hacker locates the Decker's PAN, via the Matrix Perception action (pg 182).  This is resisted by the Decker's Willpower + Decker's Sleaze.
2) Hacker breaks into the Decker's PAN, via Brute Force action, to gain Admin Access.  This is resisted by Decker's Willpower + Decker's Firewall. 
3) Now that the Hacker has Admin Access to the Decker's PAN, he also has Admin Access to all the stuff on SDTroll's PAN as well, including SDTroll's cybereye.  This gives him a few options to mess with SDTroll...
a) Could use Data Spike action on the Cybereye to do Matrix damage and potentially brick it.  This would be resisted with the Decker's Data Processing + Firewall.
b) Could use the Format Device action, resisted by the Decker's Willpower+Firewall, and then the Reboot Action, resisted by the Decker's Willpower+Firewall, to brick the Cybereye in two actions without worrying about Matrix damage.
c) Could use the Snoop action, resisted by the Decker's Data Process+Firewall, to see whatever it is SDTroll is seeing.
d) (Maybe, this is speculative) could use the Spoof Command action, resisted by the Decker's Data Processing+Firewall, to screw with with SDTroll is seeing, for example turn the gain on the thermo imaging all the way up so that all SDTroll sees are meaningless heat patters, or switch the Cybereye's feed to a Taiwanese game show,

Does that all sound right?  If SDTroll were NOT behind the Decker's PAN, then all of the above would be resisted using SDTroll's commlink Data Processing and Firewall, and SDTroll's Willpower.

[Banshee]

Yes ..  but remember not all of those actions require admin access so depending on what you wanted to do admin is overkill ... for example you can data spike poor old SDTroll's cyberyes with outsider access .. still gets the deckers stats for defense

[skalchemist]

Yes ..  but remember not all of those actions require admin access so depending on what you wanted to do admin is overkill ... for example you can data spike poor old SDTroll's cyberyes with outsider access .. still gets the deckers stats for defense

Yikes, just when I think I have a handle on this!

I had assumed that in the Matrix that SDTroll's cybereyes would be "behind" the decker's PAN, and therefore not visible until the Hacker had gained access to that.  But clearly I was wrong, from what you have just said.  You could do a Matrix Perception test to find SDTroll's cybereyes directly and attack them without doing anything with the PAN itself. 

In fact, I think almost all my confusion has been based on this (turns out faulty) assumption that once in a PAN devices were no longer "visible" to the outside world until one had access to the PAN.  This literally changes everything...

[skalchemist]

Follow-up, how does what you said, Banshee, work with this sentence from page 173...

Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

I had interpreted that as described above.

[Banshee]

Yes ..  but remember not all of those actions require admin access so depending on what you wanted to do admin is overkill ... for example you can data spike poor old SDTroll's cyberyes with outsider access .. still gets the deckers stats for defense

Yikes, just when I think I have a handle on this!

I had assumed that in the Matrix that SDTroll's cybereyes would be "behind" the decker's PAN, and therefore not visible until the Hacker had gained access to that.  But clearly I was wrong, from what you have just said.  You could do a Matrix Perception test to find SDTroll's cybereyes directly and attack them without doing anything with the PAN itself. 

In fact, I think almost all my confusion has been based on this (turns out faulty) assumption that once in a PAN devices were no longer "visible" to the outside world until one had access to the PAN.  This literally changes everything...

Yeah, they may be hiding an require a perception check to locate if running silent but not undetectable... if inside a deckers PAN you still get the deckers defense pool

[Banshee]

Follow-up, how does what you said, Banshee, work with this sentence from page 173...

Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

I had interpreted that as described above.

That's is about gaining access ... want user access to a device then you need user access on the PAN it's in. That's has nothing to do with "seeing" it

[skalchemist]

Follow-up, how does what you said, Banshee, work with this sentence from page 173...

Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

I had interpreted that as described above.

That's is about gaining access ... want user access to a device then you need user access on the PAN it's in. That's has nothing to do with "seeing" it

Wow, ok, that really does change everything for me.  I really do think nearly all my questions have involved a misunderstanding of this concept.

[Banshee]

Follow-up, how does what you said, Banshee, work with this sentence from page 173...

Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

I had interpreted that as described above.

That's is about gaining access ... want user access to a device then you need user access on the PAN it's in. That's has nothing to do with "seeing" it

Wow, ok, that really does change everything for me.  I really do think nearly all my questions have involved a misunderstanding of this concept.

Yeah, that is really the foundation of what I did to simplify things in 6E. It no longer has any focus on individual devices, but rather the networks instead. You are hacking the network and not the device 99% of the time.

[Xenon]

You could do a Matrix Perception test to find SDTroll's cybereyes directly and attack them without doing anything with the PAN itself. 

Icons in the matrix are basically immediately obvious and does not require a matrix perception test to be spotted, unless perhaps the network that the icon is slaved to is running silent - in which case you might need to take an opposed matrix perception test to first spot the network (and with it all the icons connected to the network).

Think 'network' rather than master device or slaved device.

In fact, I think almost all my confusion has been based on this (turns out faulty) assumption that once in a PAN devices were no longer "visible" to the outside world until one had access to the PAN.  This literally changes everything...

All 'outside' actions can be taken direct on devices no matter if they are part of a network or not and no matter if the hacker have access on the network or not.

Follow-up, how does what you said, Banshee, work with this sentence from page 173...

Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

I had interpreted that as described above.

That generally speaking you need access on the network before you can get to the devices attached to the network.

Specifically speaking you need user access on the network before you can take user access actions to the devices attached to the network and you need admin access on the network before you can take admin access action to the device.

You don't need any access on the network if all you wish to do is to take an outside access action to the device.

But it also mean that if the network is running silent then you first need to spot the network.

And no matter what type of access action you are using and no matter if you already have access on the network or not devices will use matrix attributes provided to them via the network.

[skalchemist]

That generally speaking you need access on the network before you can get to the devices attached to the network.

Specifically speaking you need user access on the network before you can take user access actions to the devices attached to the network and you need admin access on the network before you can take admin access action to the device.

You don't need any access on the network if all you wish to do is to take an outside access action to the device.

But it also mean that if the network is running silent then you first need to spot the network.

And no matter what type of access action you are using and no matter if you already have access on the network or not devices will use matrix attributes provided to them via the network.

Thanks Xenon, this is a good summary of what I now understand to be true.  It's that third sentence above that I was mistaken on most clearly; I had interpreted "get to" in that sentence I quoted above from page 173, as "gain any access to, including outsider access". But its clear now that sentence should maybe actually read...

Generally speaking, in order to get to gain User or Admin Access to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain User or Admin access to that PAN.

[Xenon]

Generally speaking, in order to get to gain User or Admin Access to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain User or Admin access to that PAN.

Or rather:

Generally speaking, in order to get totake User or Admin required actions to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain User or Admin access to that PAN.

[Banshee]

Or it works just fine as is since outside access is defined as not really being the default level access and does not require any hacking to have

[skalchemist]

Or rather:

Generally speaking, in order to get totake User or Admin required actions to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain User or Admin access to that PAN.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Follow-up question, now, man, you are very patient with me...how many Matrix Perception tests are needed in all of this?  Here is the text:

A successful test gives you information about the target. With a tie, you can perceive the item’s icon. A single net hit will give you basic information, such as device rating, or whatever name the device or icon calls itself. Two net hits will give you more specific information, including individual attribute ratings, and what programs it is currently running. Additional hits will give you more information based on what the gamemaster wishes to reveal. This test can also be used to attempt to find a persona that is running silent.

In that section, what exactly does "target" mean?  Does "target" mean "PAN"?  Do you need a specific name, like "Bob Carlson" or is something like "Decker who is currently screwing with us" good enough? 

taking this section on 173...

Programs and devices attached to the PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona.

(which now makes a lot more sense to me), here is my hypothesis...

* Hacker wants to screw with us.  They do a Matrix Perception test to locate "Runner Decker that is currently screwing with my employers".
* If the Hacker succeeds he finds the Icon for our Decker's PAN.  This Icon also provides information about all the stuff attached to it, which is all the Deckers stuff plus probably (using the house rules that have been discussed) all the Runner's PANs and all the stuff attached to them as well. 
* This Icon representation conveys some basic information, like "This is a Smartgun enabled M-23 Assault Rifle", "This is a personal commlink", "This is a cybereye", etc.  More net hits on the Perception test will lead to more info, such as "This is Bob Carlson's cybereye" or "This is a smartgun enabled M-23 Assault Rifle currently firing from the corner of 12th and Main".
* The Hacker can affect any part of this "web" of Icons with an action that requires Outsider Access. 
* The Hacker can Brute Force or Probe+Backdoor the PAN itself, to gain User or Admin Access to all of those Icons they can see.

Does that have it?

Or it works just fine as is since outside access is defined as not really being the default level access and does not require any hacking to have

Banshee, all I can say is that my reading of that sentence was to interpret the word "access" to mean "any access including Outsider Access".   I recognize I was incorrect, but I think my interpretation was reasonable. 

[Banshee]

A target can be a specific device or network... for example you physically see a camera on a building, you can then make a matrix perception check to see what network it is connected to and all related information as successes allow. Or you can make a check looking for PANs or personas just like someone looking for ninjas sneaking up on you, or you can target a specific persona or network to get specific information.
The most checks you should have to make is two if the are running silent.. one to find them and one to gain specific information.. but there is no reason if you want to combine it that you can't do it all in one roll where any extra successes over what you need to spot them then gives you the information.  For example if the sleaze roll get 4 hits you need 4 to see them but you get 6, now you have 2 successes of information.
How specific the names are is up to the GM but in general it should be enough to identify the target enough to separate it from the masses.

Your hypothesis is correct

[skalchemist]

A target can be a specific device or network... for example you physically see a camera on a building, you can then make a matrix perception check to see what network it is connected to and all related information as successes allow. Or you can make a check looking for PANs or personas just like someone looking for ninjas sneaking up on you, or you can target a specific persona or network to get specific information.
The most checks you should have to make is two if the are running silent.. one to find them and one to gain specific information.. but there is no reason if you want to combine it that you can't do it all in one roll where any extra successes over what you need to spot them then gives you the information.  For example if the sleaze roll get 4 hits you need 4 to see them but you get 6, now you have 2 successes of information.
How specific the names are is up to the GM but in general it should be enough to identify the target enough to separate it from the masses.

Your hypothesis is correct

I believe with this reply I have finally achieved enlightenment, for some definition of enlightenment.

Thanks to everyone for all the patience and helpful replies.   I can't speak for SDTroll (the op), but I hope they have also achieved some enlightenment.