[skalchemist]

Recent threads on matrix and hacking have raised a general question: if a hacker gets into my stuff, what type of action is needed to do screw me over through the Matrix with regards to wireless devices?  Can these be the specific minor actions listed for the devices, or is it always the "Control Device" major action from the Matrix chapter?  For example can the hacker do these things?

* Eject my clip as a Minor "Reload Smartgun" Action?
* "Change Device Mode" Minor Action on my gun to FA?
* Deactivate the chemical seal on my chemical suit as a Minor Action as mentioned on pg 266?
* Make my Electrochromatic Suit play Aztlan propaganda as a Minor Action per pg 265?

etc.

or are all those "Control Device" major action?

[Banshee]

Recent threads on matrix and hacking have raised a general question: if a hacker gets into my stuff, what type of action is needed to do screw me over through the Matrix with regards to wireless devices?  Can these be the specific minor actions listed for the devices, or is it always the "Control Device" major action from the Matrix chapter?  For example can the hacker do these things?

* Eject my clip as a Minor "Reload Smartgun" Action?
* "Change Device Mode" Minor Action on my gun to FA?
* Deactivate the chemical seal on my chemical suit as a Minor Action as mentioned on pg 266?
* Make my Electrochromatic Suit play Aztlan propaganda as a Minor Action per pg 265?

etc.

or are all those "Control Device" major action?

If being done by the hacker and not the owner ... then it the control device action

[skalchemist]

If being done by the hacker and not the owner ... then it the control device action

Thanks, that is a VERY important point. 

Given the answers you gave on that other thread I started, its the difference between:

* Hacker uses Major Action to hack Decker's PAN, then uses his three minor actions to unload three smartguns.
* Hacker uses Major Action to hack Decker's PAN, but has to wait until next turn to unload a smartgun (or something worse).

This leads me into even more questions regarding how a Hacker can actually screw with me if they get access to my PAN.  For example:

* Once a Hacker is into my PAN, most of my devices don't have the relevant scores (e.g. Data Processing, Firewall, Sleaze, etc.) for defense against Matrix actions.  Does that mean that actions taken against them are still rolled, but for the most part I'm going to be rolling no dice? 
* How does a Hacker actually brick my gun (or any other non-Commlink device)?  Is that a Data Spike Major Action?
* I'm assuming the Hacker can use Control Device to simply turn off something?  If you turn off my Smartgun, does that mean the gun itself is turned off or just the Smartgun bonus and features (e.g. camera) (the Format Device action implies, I think, that this would only affect the Smartgun features)?  Can you turn off my gun (if I have its Wireless Bonus turned on), making me waste a major action to turn it back on? Can you turn off my car as I am driving?

Forgive me, I feel certain these questions have been asked elsewhere, but in the absence of an actual FAQ or similar the search feature here on the forums generally seems to turn up just piles of stuff for earlier editions.

[Banshee]

1. Even if they have already gained access they will still be rolling against your PAN to do things not just the device... that's the benefit of putting the device in a PAN
2. The only way to brick a device is by doing matrix damage, most likely by using Data Spike
3. Yes a hacker can turn stuff off by using Control Device. I would have to double check but most things should only require a minor action to turn back I think ... especially if they are DNI. Smart gun specifically, yes you would just lose the bonuses until reactivated.

We are working on a FAQ, so ... eventually

[Xenon]

Does that mean that actions taken against them are still rolled, but for the most part I'm going to be rolling no dice? 

If a hacker want to control your drone then he can for example spoof an instruction directly to the autopilot of the drone, having the drone act on its own initiative using its own ratings and available autosofts.

This can be done directly without being inside the network and is opposed by the pilot rating of the drone and the firewall of your RCC, commlink or cyberjack (depending on what you are currently basing your PAN around). This would be the Spoof Command action and since it is an illegal matrix action he will accumulate overwatch score equal to net hits of the opposing roll.

If a hacker is already inside your network then he can instead just remote control the drone directly as if he would be a legit user. Using his own initiative and his own Pilot + Intuition or Engineering + Logic ratings. This would be the Control Device action and since it is a legal matrix action he will not accumulate any overwatch score when doing this.

How does a Hacker actually brick my gun (or any other non-Commlink device)? 

By taking the Data Spike action. This action can be taken directly even if the gun is part of your PAN, but if it is then you will get to oppose the roll using the Data Processing and the Firewall rating of your RCC, commlink or cyberjack.

I'm assuming the Hacker can use Control Device to simply turn off something? 

Yes (if the hacker have Admin access).

SR6 p. 180 Control Device
While you have control, you can use the device as if you were the owner  ... including turning the device off if you have Admin access.

Can you turn off my car as I am driving?

It doesn't seem as if I am allowed to do it with the Control Device action because:

SR6 p. 196 Rigging - The Basics
Vehicles and drones can only have one driver/controller at a time, regardless of method.

But yes, it seem as if I could do it with the Reboot Device action (which require that I first have Admin access).



Ninja'd by Banshee. Again. I need to write shorter responses

[Banshee]

Ninja'd by Banshee. Again. I need to write shorter responses

Not at all, you usually at least add depth or cover some points that I do not. 😉

[skalchemist]

1. Even if they have already gained access they will still be rolling against your PAN to do things not just the device... that's the benefit of putting the device in a PAN

If I am understanding this point, gaining Admin access to a PAN doesn't actually get rid of the defenses of the PAN, it just lets you take Matrix Actions that require Admin access.  You still have to "fight" the Decker's defenses to make those actions stick.  Do I have that right?

A specific example: Hacker uses Probe + Backdoor and gains Admin access to the Decker's PAN.  The Decker has his Electrochromatic Suit set to Wireless Mode, and its connected to the Decker's PAN.  The Hacker wants to make the Decker's Electrochromatic Suit show insulting messages to the Go-Gangers the Decker is trying to negotiate with.  This seems like Control Device to me (although I guess it could be Spoof Command, but lets go with Control Device). 

If I am understanding you, even though the Hacker has Admin Access to the Decker's PAN, they would still have to beat the Decker's Willpower+Firewall to successfully get the Decker into trouble with the Go-Gangers in this fashion by controlling their Electrochromatic Suit.  Is that right?

If so, this makes the whole situation FAR less dangerous than I was thinking it was.  I mean, its bad that the Hacker has Admin Access, but if they still have to beat the Decker's stats (and not the device's), that mitigates the threat somewhat.

I would love a page number that describes this, but I suspect I am well into FAQ/Errata territory with this question. 

[Banshee]

1. Even if they have already gained access they will still be rolling against your PAN to do things not just the device... that's the benefit of putting the device in a PAN

If I am understanding this point, gaining Admin access to a PAN doesn't actually get rid of the defenses of the PAN, it just lets you take Matrix Actions that require Admin access.  You still have to "fight" the Decker's defenses to make those actions stick.  Do I have that right?

A specific example: Hacker uses Probe + Backdoor and gains Admin access to the Decker's PAN.  The Decker has his Electrochromatic Suit set to Wireless Mode, and its connected to the Decker's PAN.  The Hacker wants to make the Decker's Electrochromatic Suit show insulting messages to the Go-Gangers the Decker is trying to negotiate with.  This seems like Control Device to me (although I guess it could be Spoof Command, but lets go with Control Device). 

If I am understanding you, even though the Hacker has Admin Access to the Decker's PAN, they would still have to beat the Decker's Willpower+Firewall to successfully get the Decker into trouble with the Go-Gangers in this fashion by controlling their Electrochromatic Suit.  Is that right?

If so, this makes the whole situation FAR less dangerous than I was thinking it was.  I mean, its bad that the Hacker has Admin Access, but if they still have to beat the Decker's stats (and not the device's), that mitigates the threat somewhat.

I would love a page number that describes this, but I suspect I am well into FAQ/Errata territory with this question.

That's correct.

Couldn't really give you a specific page number because it is talked about throughout the chapter in one way or another. The whole section where I talk about the network being the ultimate target ... want to hack that camera, then get access to the network it's on is just one example. A device is never defenseless unless it is isolated from a network.

[skalchemist]

1. Even if they have already gained access they will still be rolling against your PAN to do things not just the device... that's the benefit of putting the device in a PAN

If I am understanding this point, gaining Admin access to a PAN doesn't actually get rid of the defenses of the PAN, it just lets you take Matrix Actions that require Admin access.  You still have to "fight" the Decker's defenses to make those actions stick.  Do I have that right?

A specific example: Hacker uses Probe + Backdoor and gains Admin access to the Decker's PAN.  The Decker has his Electrochromatic Suit set to Wireless Mode, and its connected to the Decker's PAN.  The Hacker wants to make the Decker's Electrochromatic Suit show insulting messages to the Go-Gangers the Decker is trying to negotiate with.  This seems like Control Device to me (although I guess it could be Spoof Command, but lets go with Control Device). 

If I am understanding you, even though the Hacker has Admin Access to the Decker's PAN, they would still have to beat the Decker's Willpower+Firewall to successfully get the Decker into trouble with the Go-Gangers in this fashion by controlling their Electrochromatic Suit.  Is that right?

If so, this makes the whole situation FAR less dangerous than I was thinking it was.  I mean, its bad that the Hacker has Admin Access, but if they still have to beat the Decker's stats (and not the device's), that mitigates the threat somewhat.

I would love a page number that describes this, but I suspect I am well into FAQ/Errata territory with this question.

That's correct.

Couldn't really give you a specific page number because it is talked about throughout the chapter in one way or another. The whole section where I talk about the network being the ultimate target ... want to hack that camera, then get access to the network it's on is just one example. A device is never defenseless unless it is isolated from a network.

Sorry, but the more I have thought about this, the more I find it confusing when compared to the discussion in other threads, so I'm going to push it bit deeper...

What, really, is the value of cracking into a PAN to gain Admin Access?  From your reply above, it doesn't actually reduce the difficulty of doing bad stuff to someone, the decker protecting the PAN still uses their attributes even though they have the access. 

Is it that you can attempt actions that you would not be able to attempt otherwise?  I mean, that's a pretty important thing, because a number of key actions are Admin Access only (e.g. Reboot Device, Format Device, Snoop) require Admin Access.  But its not nearly as dangerous as I thought it would be, because I assumed it also meant that the protecting Decker's stats (at a minimum Firewall) would no longer apply.

Is it that you can now see all the stuff in the PAN (which, per the other threads, could mean all of the rest of the Shadowrunning group's PANs and their attached devices) without any further Matrix Perception rolls?  That would make sense as well. 

I'm sorry I'm so dense on this, but I really want a clear understanding of how all this works, mechanically, in the game.  I can build out the fictional component (what is happening in the Shadowrun universe) no problem regardless, but knowing just how many actions and what types are necessary to do stuff (or for the enemy to do stuff), and what the opposing dice pools should be, is the most important bit.

[Banshee]

You are correct... the only way to attempt certain actions are to have the right level of access or higher, so at admin level you can attempt all actions. It all depends on how deep you need to get intobyhe system.. is user level actions all you need then there is no reason to try for admin.

And yes under normal circumstances you would be able to detect all devices that are part of the network without making a perception check.

Just a side note, and not meant to contradictory but I think a deep understanding of the exact rules is one of the least important things. The most important is having fun ... I often run entire sessions without ever looking at a book or character sheet just by rolling a random number of dice based on how tough I want to make it on my players. So it all depends on what is fun for you.

[skalchemist]

Just a side note, and not meant to contradictory but I think a deep understanding of the exact rules is one of the least important things. The most important is having fun ... I often run entire sessions without ever looking at a book or character sheet just by rolling a random number of dice based on how tough I want to make it on my players. So it all depends on what is fun for you.

I agree that fun is the most important thing!  In my case, though, I get fun from rules being consistently applied in a way that makes sense to me.  So, for example, if I am playing the Decker for my group, I want to have some clear idea of how many actions (which translates to turns, which translates to time) I can expect it to take an enemy to screw with me.  Can they screw with me as a Major or Minor action?  Will it take one turn or two?  Also, I want a clear idea of how to use the material on my character sheet to do stuff.  Does my Cyberdeck's Firewall still count to defend, or have I lost that advantage because of a certain any enemy action?  I do find that fun, not a distraction. 

Thanks to you and Xenon for all the help.  I think I have a clear understanding now (although by tomorrow I may have another raft of questions).

[jman5000]

great thread.

2 quick questions based on Banshee's rules as intended answers (which are great btw!!).

1)  how can a street level decker ever have a chance to do anything against the player characters, assuming that the PC's will optimally always put their own personal PANs behind their deckers defenses?  isn't there an arms race here that only the PC's decker can ever win simply due the costs of the gear needed to attack and defend? 

2)  a harder question (potentially).  assuming 2 groups of runners facing off.  each with a decker with similar levels of gear.  both parties are behind the deckers PAN.  what is the optimal strategy that the deckers should use?  attack your opponents cyberdeck to try and brick it?  try to gain access, insert a back-door, and then keep struggling to defeat the defenses to do anything to the devices protected behind it?  simply try and jam the other?

Cheers,

J.

[Banshee]

great thread.

2 quick questions based on Banshee's rules as intended answers (which are great btw!!).

1)  how can a street level decker ever have a chance to do anything against the player characters, assuming that the PC's will optimally always put their own personal PANs behind their deckers defenses?  isn't there an arms race here that only the PC's decker can ever win simply due the costs of the gear needed to attack and defend? 

2)  a harder question (potentially).  assuming 2 groups of runners facing off.  each with a decker with similar levels of gear.  both parties are behind the deckers PAN.  what is the optimal strategy that the deckers should use?  attack your opponents cyberdeck to try and brick it?  try to gain access, insert a back-door, and then keep struggling to defeat the defenses to do anything to the devices protected behind it?  simply try and jam the other?

Cheers,

J.

Personally my take is ...

1. SR pcs are supposed to be well above average when compared to street level so yeah a street level decker will be outclassed usually. If you want to challenge the party then you need to get creative... maybe the street decker can manipulate the environment rather than target thevrunners directly.

2. Shoot the enemy decker in the head?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

1) I think the existence of a limit on the number of devices you can put in a PAN is supposed to cover this, partially or in full. But, regardless, there's not always someone wanting to play the Decker. Noone wants to be the Matrix guy? Then suffer the consequences!

2) too open ended a question.  Circumstances would dictate tactics.  This is like asking if the Adepts and Sammies should hang back and lay down gunfire, or close in and engage in melee.  That can be used as an analogy, however.  Hanging back and shooting would be akin to the Decker remaining defensive and reactive.  Going on the matrix offense would be like rushing in to close combat.