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Cutting Black

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penllawen

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« Reply #45 on: <02-05-20/0732:29> »
If I fill in the blanks, what do I do when Catalyst go in a different direction?
The same thing you would do with the hundreds of other plot ideas Shadowrun has had over the years that weren't immediately explained fully.  To name a few:
--Church of the Dragon
--Dunkelzahn's death
--Anything to do with Nadja Daviar...basically ever
--The Hestaby/Lofwyr Tir Tairngire situation
--The Watergate Rift
--Aztechnology being secretly super evil
--Dragon egg clutches
--Elves and reincarnation
--Drakes
--the nature of spirits
Firstly, I think hardly any of these are on remotely the same scale, in terms of their impact on the world and the PCs within it, as a mysterious attack by an overwhelming force that has turned the entire UCAS inside-out. We've had 30 years of SR play without knowing if spirits are created or summoned and we're doing OK. "What's up with Nadja Daviar" is really, really narrow and I can't imagine many tables have ever relied on it as a plot hook.

Even the ones that are bigger were explained in pretty good time. Take Dunkelzahn's death, for instance. It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say. And if you did care how the big D bought it: well, the Dragonheart novels explained all the backstory, and the first of those was published (IIRC) just a few months after the sourcebook.


FastJack

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« Reply #46 on: <02-05-20/0818:21> »
Personal I prefer getting the answers since I feel in many cases it comes off as “I know something you don’t”-bullying cliffhanging attitude.
As a GM by having the (an) official reason I can choose to ignore it or tailor it to my own story needs for all the major plots. The minor ones can be left hanging, but there needs to be answers for all the major events.
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...

Beta

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« Reply #47 on: <02-05-20/1110:15> »
Personal I prefer getting the answers since I feel in many cases it comes off as “I know something you don’t”-bullying cliffhanging attitude.
As a GM by having the (an) official reason I can choose to ignore it or tailor it to my own story needs for all the major plots. The minor ones can be left hanging, but there needs to be answers for all the major events.
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...

I really don’t buy that approach.  In essence it says that Tables can’t be trusted with access to full information, presumably because either (or both) of:
a)   Players will somehow break things by metagaming too much
b)   GMs can’t be expected to build tension through the stories in their game, if people have meta-knowledge.

To both I’d say to Catalyst: trust your customers to find fun in their games, and please give them the complete playground to find that fun in.

It would be a bit different if there were updates coming out every 4-6 months that updated the whole meta-plot in a reliable and accessible way, but that certainly has not been the case in recent years.

Ixal

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« Reply #48 on: <02-05-20/1239:20> »
Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say.

I don't think so.
Placing the PCs inside the cities as the EMP goes off is a bad idea (for various reasons) but you can still use the after effects in the game without knowing the cause.
Higher demand for warez leading to increased smuggling, gang/organized crime violence as knocking out cyberware shifted the balance of power, spontaneous raids or runs within a short window before security systems get replaced, rumors of one lab or item not being affected which becomes the target of several runs at the same time, etc.

GuardDuty

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« Reply #49 on: <02-05-20/1417:34> »
Even the ones that are bigger were explained in pretty good time. Take Dunkelzahn's death, for instance. It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say. And if you did care how the big D bought it: well, the Dragonheart novels explained all the backstory, and the first of those was published (IIRC) just a few months after the sourcebook.

...I'm not sure any sourcebook actually clearly explains Dunkelzahn's death, but there certainly wasn't one within years of his death occurring.  Within years.  Literally the biggest event in UCAS history, and they only gave players hints and contradicting rumors about what happened.  I don't really care if it was explained in a (pretty crappy) trilogy of novels.  Shadowrun novels are not sourcebooks.  Neither do I recall FASA advertising "hey, if you want the definitive explanation, read this".  I didn't personally find out for about a decade that's what the Dragonheart Saga was about.

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It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say.

First, I'd like to point out that comparing your difficulties with actively using a major event in your campaign (EMPs) is different from using the fallout of a major event (Dunkelzahn's will).  The proper comparison would either be trying to using Dunkelzahn's assassination, which was presented with a comparable amount of questions, or comparing the fallout of Cutting Black with D's Will.  The Big D biting it left a giant rift between the physical and astral planes right in the middle of DC...why?  What was it?  Where did it come from?  What could it do?  Was it going to grow?  Could things come out of it?  What are the consequences of its existence?  And of course, who killed him anyway?

That said, Portfolio of a Dragon is one of my very favorite gaming supplements ever, just under The Book of Exalted Deeds.  However, I think you're willfully ignoring some pretty major things mentioned in it, that certainly weren't addressed quickly thereafter that seemed like pretty major plot threads.  What are the Keys of Power?  That sounds pretty important, especially after finding out the particulars of Dunkelzahn's death.  Why was he concerned with the leaders of the Tir governments revealing their real identities?  Who are they, and what is the reason for their animosity towards each other?  Here's something that goes pretty much completely unanswered as far as I can tell: what is the 7 year plan Dunkelzahn leaves Nadja Daviar?  How specific and extensive is it, anyway?  How much did it shape the future of the game world?  How much of what she does going forward is from him, and how much is her idea?  How are you supposed to use any of the major corporate shakeups (Draco Foundation, Miles Lanier, Arthur Vogel, Nadja Daviar) from D's will without knowing where FASA was planning on going with them?  What about the fact D used a human will instead of following dragon tradition?  That seemed kind of important (as does the Jewel of Memory he leaves Lofwyr), but it was several years before the developers picked that up.  And obviously, the most important...

WHO KILLED DUNKELZAHN?!

Shadowrun has a long history of throwing a lot of plot threads out there and weaving some of them together over a long period of time...if they get expanded upon at all.  So, I say again: use the EMPs in Cutting Black how you want and account for differences with future supplements as it happens, or wait for more explanation, the same way it's always been.  I just don't see why you think the EMP thing is somehow different from any of the others.

Horsemen

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« Reply #50 on: <02-05-20/1729:20> »
Whatever information my players discover about the 'EMPs' if their characters pursue that path when we get there can later be discovered to be inaccurate and that is just the path that the data was going in while whoever they liberated it from tried to figure out what happened.

Or if it turns out that Corporation or entity was behind it, deliberate misinformation to obfuscate the truth.
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penllawen

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« Reply #51 on: <02-05-20/1759:41> »
I don't really care if it was explained in a (pretty crappy) trilogy of novels.  Shadowrun novels are not sourcebooks.  Neither do I recall FASA advertising "hey, if you want the definitive explanation, read this".  I didn't personally find out for about a decade that's what the Dragonheart Saga was about.
shrug

I don't know what to tell you. I don't much care for the novels either, but they are canon, and I simply don't think that was an unreasonable way to explain what happened when the big D bought it. I just read a plot summary (probably on dumpshock) around when they were released and got on with my campaign.

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First, I'd like to point out that comparing your difficulties with actively using a major event in your campaign (EMPs) is different from using the fallout of a major event (Dunkelzahn's will).
Not my difficulties, incidentally; I have no plans to buy Cutting Black.

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That said, Portfolio of a Dragon is one of my very favorite gaming supplements ever, just under The Book of Exalted Deeds.  However, I think you're willfully ignoring some pretty major things mentioned in it, that certainly weren't addressed quickly thereafter that seemed like pretty major plot threads.  What are the Keys of Power?  That sounds pretty important, especially after finding out the particulars of Dunkelzahn's death.  Why was he concerned with the leaders of the Tir governments revealing their real identities?  Who are they, and what is the reason for their animosity towards each other?  Here's something that goes pretty much completely unanswered as far as I can tell: what is the 7 year plan Dunkelzahn leaves Nadja Daviar?  How specific and extensive is it, anyway?  How much did it shape the future of the game world?  How much of what she does going forward is from him, and how much is her idea?  How are you supposed to use any of the major corporate shakeups (Draco Foundation, Miles Lanier, Arthur Vogel, Nadja Daviar) from D's will without knowing where FASA was planning on going with them?  What about the fact D used a human will instead of following dragon tradition?  That seemed kind of important (as does the Jewel of Memory he leaves Lofwyr), but it was several years before the developers picked that up.
Hang on. Page 9 of Portfolio of a Dragon (which is sitting next to me as I write this) says:

"Of the 200-plus items, groups, individuals, and events mentioned in the will, FASA currently plans to use only ten or so in future products, although we cannot guarantee that we won't someday use something in the will differently than your campaign, the sheer number of items and the potential for variations on similar themes makes such an outcome unlikely."

So complaining about "this book leaves loose ends lying around" when that's explicitly the point of the book seems a little churlish, no?

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So, I say again: use the EMPs in Cutting Black how you want and account for differences with future supplements as it happens, or wait for more explanation, the same way it's always been.  I just don't see why you think the EMP thing is somehow different from any of the others.
It's not specifically the EMPs themselves, that's just an example that I had in my mind from reading reviews. My understand is that Cutting Black doesn't give GMs any information at all about why these massive upheavals have happened. Seems problematic, to me.

But like I said, I have no interest in buying or reading it.

CanRay

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« Reply #52 on: <02-05-20/1820:27> »
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...
By that logic, my late Stepfather is invincible in the Deadlands universe.

Considering that I made the author cry when I explained why I wanted to put him into the game rather than myself (Kickstarter Bonuses are awesome sometimes!), well...

Anyhow, back to Shadowrun!
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #53 on: <02-05-20/1823:55> »
Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Vormaerin

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« Reply #54 on: <02-06-20/0058:36> »
The same thing you would do with the hundreds of other plot ideas Shadowrun has had over the years that weren't immediately explained fully.  To name a few:
--Church of the Dragon
--Dunkelzahn's death
--Anything to do with Nadja Daviar...basically ever
--The Hestaby/Lofwyr Tir Tairngire situation
--The Watergate Rift
--Aztechnology being secretly super evil
--Dragon egg clutches
--Elves and reincarnation
--Drakes
--the nature of spirits

Information on all of these were presented in sourcebooks first as teases, rumors, conflicting reports, etc., back in the good old days.  If your group used them and later on printed material went in a different direction with it, you just used what you wanted and ignored the rest, or else you left it alone and gave it time to develop in official source material.  This might be different somehow, but I don't see it.

Its not really different.  This is just part and parcel of how Catalyst runs the line.  But this it their first story release for the new edition.  I don't expect them to change their spots, but it would be nice if stopped doing it this way. I've never liked it.  I end up not using any of it unless its years (real time) later.  If I use it at all, which has been increasingly less likely as they get more and more grandiose and world shaking.

The cool part of shadowrun is being cyberpunk urban fantasy and the campaign world is a big part of that.  But, as I said before, I want them to publish things that help me run *MY* game.  But that's not how they approach these kinds of source books, unfortunately.

I don't recall anything from FASA that worked that way, but its been a few years since they were in charge, so I could be misremembering. :P 

Horsemen

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« Reply #55 on: <02-06-20/0114:51> »
Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"

Did I just hear a squish???? Splorch!
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Singularity

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« Reply #56 on: <02-08-20/0736:11> »
Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"

Did I just hear a squish???? Splorch!

*sigh* I'll grab the spatula....

Lormyr

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« Reply #57 on: <02-08-20/0843:46> »
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...

This is true, but dnd has also had stats for deities since very near the beginning. I remember my fighter killing Lolth in one hit with a hammer of thunderbolts at the end of the against the giants/into the demonweb chain in 1st edition. Man that makes me feel old.

But giving stats to creatures is also significantly different than a company fully drawing out a plotline they have released to the public as an important plotline.
« Last Edit: <02-08-20/0846:25> by Lormyr »
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