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[6e] Full defence nerfed compared to 5e

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penllawen

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« on: <02-05-20/1814:27> »
Full defence / parry / etc effectively got a nerf in 6e, the way I see it. Is anyone else bothered by this? Anyone else thought of a houserule to mitigate it?

When I last mooted using 6e's action economy backported to our 5e game, one of my players' characters was a physad mildlyoptimised around full defence (he had Agile Defender and, umm, some physad ability stacked on top of that.) Under 5e, he'd typically be sacrificing his 2nd or maybe 3rd phase to turn on full defence, then have a stackload extra defence dice against every attack for the rest of the turn.

In 6e, this gets nerfed two different ways.

Firstly: in 6e, losing 1 Major action per turn is 50% of his potential attacks, as opposed to losing 1/3 or 1/4 of his phases in 5e, so the cost - in terms of reduced opportunity to act - has gone up.

Secondly (and more seriously): under 5e, he can keep his option about using defensive interrupts until he needs them, as he can always take the initiative hit later during the turn. Under 6e, if he thinks he might need a defensive interrupt later, he has to keep actions back - and if he was wrong about that, those actions will be wasted. It becomes a pretty painful choice for a combat character acting on phase 35 to decide to hold back fully half of his actions for the entire turn in case things turn nasty when the group of gangers who rolled 8 get a go. And if the combat character didn't need defence after all - well, now, that action he saved is wasted.

Perhaps that risk/reward calculation is a good thing for some, but it bothered the crap out of me, and I couldn't either make myself not care or find a way to fix it. So that, on top of having a character in play who would be a bit broken by it, was enough to make me kill the idea.

Has anyone thought of a houserule to fix this?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <02-05-20/1827:09> »
Respectfully, I think you're failing to see the forest because of the trees being in the way.

On your two points:

1) If you think you're supposed to be routinely using 2 Majors per combat round, I don't think you completely "get" 6we. The advantage in wired reflexes and such isn't the potential to attack twice.  It's in being able to dodge a LOT of attacks.  Consider armor: it doesn't help on soak.  Ok, that's not a bug but a feature.  If you want to survive combat, the absolute best defense of all is not getting hit in the first place.  That is the OPPOSITE of nerfing dodgey-stuff.

2) Dodging/Blocking attacks are anytime actions.  Again, so long as you're not falling into the trap of using 2 majors when you didn't absolutely have to, you block and dodge as needed.  I don't see a problem here.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #2 on: <02-05-20/1855:55> »
So you think the design intention was to put a street samurai with Wired Reflexes III and a street rat ganger on the same attacks-per-turn basis? Whereas in every previous version of SR, the samurai is making 3x or more the number of attacks? That seems like quite a big decision, if that was the intent.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <02-05-20/1858:08> »
So you think the design intention was to put a street samurai with Wired Reflexes III and a street rat ganger on the same attacks-per-turn basis? Whereas in every previous version of SR, the samurai is making 3x or more the number of attacks? That seems like quite a big decision, if that was the intent.

Yes I do.  And, yes, some sacred cows were killed to make 6we.  It's the biggest shakeup to the franchise since 4e.

Note that, despite being on a more-or-less even basis on attacks-per-turn, it doesn't mean the street rat ganger is supposed to be a peer competitor to a street samurai.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #4 on: <02-05-20/1858:24> »
So you think the design intention was to put a street samurai with Wired Reflexes III and a street rat ganger on the same attacks-per-turn basis? Whereas in every previous version of SR, the samurai is making 3x or more the number of attacks? That seems like quite a big decision, if that was the intent.

Yes ... because while the attack actions are basically the same that wired up street sam has 3x the options to work with including but not limited to attacking AND defending at the same time where as that ganger doesn't
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <02-05-20/1900:26> »
So you think the design intention was to put a street samurai with Wired Reflexes III and a street rat ganger on the same attacks-per-turn basis? Whereas in every previous version of SR, the samurai is making 3x or more the number of attacks? That seems like quite a big decision, if that was the intent.

Yes ... because while the attack actions are basically the same that wired up street sam has 3x the options to work with including but not limited to attacking AND defending at the same time where as that ganger doesn't

And then there's the mook factor.. the street rat ganger probably gets LESS than 1 attack per round.. up to 5 of them at a time combine to generate a single attack.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

welldressedgent

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« Reply #6 on: <02-05-20/2301:23> »

Maybe this deserved to be nerfed?

g
wdg