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[6e] Quality costs are all fragged up

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Trigger Lynx

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« on: <02-09-20/1726:54> »
Hey, gang. Just got my hands on a copy of SR6 a week ago and after digesting the bulk of the core rules, I have to say the Karma cost for some of the Qualities are just grossly disproportionate to their effect. I'll use two Negative Qualities,  Honorbound (pg 76, 10 Karma) and Scorched (ph 78, 6 Karma) as an example.  Honorbound disallows Edge gain or expenditure fo 24 hours after breaking a tenet of your code, which is largely avoided by simply roleplaying your character properly.  Scorched disallows spending Edge on any roll associated with using the Matrix,  which happens virtually (see what I did there?) every waking moment of a PCs life. Barring Athletics, Close Combat, and Magical skills, every skill can (or must) be used with the wireless Matrix.

And for what it's worth, I dig the new edition. I've played 2nd and 4th edition SR for many many moons, and I enjoy what the Sixth World has become in 2080, but there are just some glaring oversights and omissions in the new product.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <02-09-20/1743:49> »
Interesting choice of qualities.  I totally expected to see some other ones, after reading the title.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <02-09-20/1750:41> »
Same. As for wireless Matrix: First of all, it's when accessing the Matrix, as the fluff also clarifies: It's when you're using comms, smartlinks, etc. Firing guns without smartlinks is still quite doable, you can drive manually, pick a lock no worries, so this isn't that bad. Plus not being able to spend Edge, eh? It's easy to have a build that doesn't suffer from those. Simsense Vertigo and AR Vertigo are worse when it comes to their downsides.

As for Honorbound: That's a quality involving both proper RP and your GM giving you devilish decisions to make. Just like the various levels of SINner in SR5, the quality depends on whether the GM plays it right. If the GM feels they cannot give it decent value, they should simply ban it.
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Trigger Lynx

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« Reply #3 on: <02-09-20/1813:26> »
Lolz, fair enough, but those two specifically were in mind. Trying to make my first 6e character with those qualities, and that's the first I noticed the cost/effect balancing didn't seem right.  Toxin Resistance and Gremlins are also good examples, but I didn't want to paste a wall of text =]

Using my previous examples,  it just struck me as odd that Honorbound is basically 10 free Karma at character creation with little to no chance of a drawback while Scorched can possibly effect every single roll you make in an encounter and it gives you just over half of the Karma for it.

And I don't know what involvement you have with the game, but I meant it when I said I like the new edition. I like the new Edge-focused system, and the Attack Rating/Defense Rating mechanic. I really like how the Matrix is handled. If I read it correctly, the UMT is in full effect regarding what kind spirits can be summoned, regardless of Tradition, and I like that a lot also.  Couple things I didn't like, but that's on me, not on the game. I'll get over it, and maybe even come to enjoy those things. Hell, I remember when 3e came out I refused to play it because I thought the wireless Matrix was too much if a deviation from "classic" Shadowrun, but when I saw a copy of 4e at my local hobby shop I thumbed through it and the first character I made was a Technomancer. I became infatuated with the WMI after my first game session. After that, if anyone in my gaming group had questions about how the wireless Matrix/PAN topography worked they came to me, even the GM =]

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <02-09-20/1836:50> »
Asides from 'we left out a tiny rule-section which needs filling in asap' parts, I really love SR6, but you're right that some qualities are definitely in need of rebalancing. With Honorbound, however, it's more of an 'RP vs mechanics' balance. In some games it might be free karma, in others it will be significant. On the other hand, if a Troll uses a lasersight, they're kicking ass without worries about Scorched or Vertigo. So I consider it same as SR5 Criminal SIN: Depends on GM and players to agree if the cost and consequences are fair, or if it should just be banned.

As for involvement: I am just an enthousiastic fan right now. =) (Also, one of the Sprawl Ops backers that ended up in the Rogue's Gallery Deck.)
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Trigger Lynx

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« Reply #5 on: <02-09-20/1917:59> »
Ok, those are pretty clear cut examples and perhaps I am misreading it.

[q]Game Effect: You cannot spend Edge while accessing the Matrix. This includes through use of commlinks, smartlinks, and any other source of data coming in from the ether.[/q]

I see that and my interpretation is that if a character is using an image link/sound link/smart link/simsense for any reason that they just flat out can't spend Edge. It doesn't specify what actions are affected,  just that Edge can't be spent. If a character is trying to commcall a contact, whether it's an AR window or they're putting the commlink up to their ear and speaking into it like a caveman, they've accessing the Matrix and they can't spend Edge on Con or Influence tests they make while trying to get the info. That's hardly worth 6 Karma.

And I agree with you about AR/ Simsense Vertigo having far worse downsides due to the Nauseated status. Especially AR Vertigo,  which is both technologically and socially crippling in the Sixth World... and they're both worth less than Honorbound.  Regardless of how devious a GM can be or how coercive the other PCs are, you straight up CAN'T force an Assassin's Creed player to kill an innocent witness or a White Hat player to hit the Corp Spider with Biofeedback.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but having a moderate lactose intolerance gets you more Karma than not being able to interact with AR technology without tagging the street with your stomach contents, and people use AR in their day to day life. You can simply choose not to drink milk and never have to deal with the -4 penalty. In a setting where you take on the role of a high tech lowlife with robot arms and magic spells in a dystopian society where milk is rich people food, that isn't balanced.

And again, I hope I'm not coming off as abrasive, that isn't my intention at all. I'm just an average Joe Chummer that's putting his.02¥ in for the sake of future errata or reprints of the product. Thank you for taking the time to reply =]
« Last Edit: <02-09-20/1929:15> by Trigger Lynx »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <02-10-20/0036:08> »
Vertigos are also more nasty because they prevent you from gaining Edge. With Edge benefits smaller than in the past, it's normal for many characters to not spend Edge on certain tests anyway, so that's not that bad. But you can still for example gain Edge when firing your gun, then use it after you turn your Smartlink off. But AR Vertigo will still work with commlink calls, while Simsense Vertigo will still work with smartlinks, so each of them has its upsides and downsides, and a player interested in any can pick the one that fits their playstyle best. Meanwhile, the mage won't care about AR Vertigo at all, while the Face doesn't worry about food allergies due to their Middle lifestyle allowing them easy access to decent food.

And yes, you can't force a player to kill an innocent witness. Which means you left a witness and a trail, and will cause trouble down the road. Merely knocking the Spider offline allows them to dial in backup and trigger an HTR team. Being lactose intolerant can be cheap karma, but it could also mean the GM rolls a die every time you eat to see if there's cross-contamination. Being addicted to cigarettes at level 5 means nothing to me unless a run takes me 6 continuous hours of not being able to take a breather. Decreasing my max Strength with 4 is free karma for any build that will never involve Strength to begin with.

As SR5 example I referenced SINner. Specifically the 25-karma level, which was basically the entire pool you were allowed in SR5. This was basically a death sentence to a player if ever revealed. And a GM could decide not to do anything with it, making it 25 free karma, or force the player into horrible scenarios despite any precautions they take. So I used to give the advice 'unless your player and you explicitly agree on the possible consequences and frequency of action required, do not allow any negative quality past 10 karma'. In the end, whenever a quality involves a GM making active decisions on how often and how much to harass you, it could be free karma in some games, and extremely nasty in others. There's a reason SRM banned a lot of qualities in SR5: Because to not make them free karma, would take significant time away from the game itself.

So I agree with you qualities should be balanced, but in some cases, it's a significant matter of opinion and GM style regarding consequences where the balance point should lie. So I'm going to point you at one of the most important things I ever tell any GM: If you don't like it, ban it. Seriously. If a character concept rubs you the wrong way, or you feel your game won't do justice to certain negative qualities and make them too much like free karma, you're always allowed to say 'sorry people, not allowing X'. (Example: In SR4, I banned Orgasm because I felt there were other spells to reach that effect and its description was just gross.) You're playing WITH your players, and obviously 'negative qualities should have an impact correlated to their bonus karma' is a big deal on making both players and GM treat the game as a fun shared storytelling event. If your table won't handle a quality the way you think it should be based on its bonus, do whatever you feel needed to fix that. But at another table, it might be too expensive instead of too cheap.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: <02-10-20/0622:13> »
Same. As for wireless Matrix: First of all, it's when accessing the Matrix, as the fluff also clarifies: It's when you're using comms, smartlinks, etc. Firing guns without smartlinks is still quite doable, you can drive manually, pick a lock no worries, so this isn't that bad. Plus not being able to spend Edge, eh? It's easy to have a build that doesn't suffer from those. Simsense Vertigo and AR Vertigo are worse when it comes to their downsides.
There are much more obvious contenders for fragged up Qualities. The worst contender costs 3 Karma and lets you earn free edge for literally just thinking hard about stuff ::)

Side note: It kinda irks me that there are so many Anti-Tech/Matrix Qualities (Vertigos, Scorched, Gremlins, Uneducated...) in the CRB, but nothing that forces the character into the other extreme. How about an opposite quality to AR Vertigo (AR Dependency?) where your character is so accustomed to using Matrix support for even the simplest task that you can´t earn/spend Edge on tests where you don´t have some kind of AR overlay to help you with it?
« Last Edit: <02-10-20/0628:01> by Finstersang »

penllawen

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« Reply #8 on: <02-10-20/0642:32> »
There are much more obvious contenders for fragged up Qualities. The worst contender costs 3 Karma and lets you earn free edge for literally just thinking hard about stuff ::)
Nobody:

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Not a soul:

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Trim2060

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« Reply #9 on: <02-10-20/0857:53> »
Side note: It kinda irks me that there are so many Anti-Tech/Matrix Qualities (Vertigos, Scorched, Gremlins, Uneducated...) in the CRB, but nothing that forces the character into the other extreme. How about an opposite quality to AR Vertigo (AR Dependency?) where your character is so accustomed to using Matrix support for even the simplest task that you can´t earn/spend Edge on tests where you don´t have some kind of AR overlay to help you with it?

That is an addiction!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <02-10-20/1011:33> »
There are much more obvious contenders for fragged up Qualities. The worst contender costs 3 Karma and lets you earn free edge for literally just thinking hard about stuff ::)
Nobody:

No-one:

Not a soul:

Catalyst: "Here's that big ol' buff to Focused Concentration you've all been asking for!"

To be fair, the limit on drain means at least you can't FC up a big initiative dice bonus.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #11 on: <02-10-20/1024:54> »
To be fair, the limit on drain means at least you can't FC up a big initiative dice bonus.
You can get +2/+2d6 to init from Increase Reflexes for a drain value of 6, staying under the Focused Concentration threshold. Quite a lot, IMO, for a 5-karma spell plus a 12-karma quality, or a nominal value of 34k nuyen. In contrast, Wired Reflexes II costs 2 Essence and 150k, for a similar mechanical benefit.

penllawen

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« Reply #12 on: <02-10-20/1035:24> »
Lormyr said it best:

Sovereign casts Increase Attribute: Charisma [4 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 6 hits on 18 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He follows up with Increase Attribute: Willpower [5 hits on 14 dice for spellcasting, 8 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration. He finishes with Increase Reflexes [buys 2 hits, 7 hits on 22 dice for drain vs. 6 drain], taking no damage and sustaining with focused concentration.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <02-10-20/1044:19> »
To be fair, the limit on drain means at least you can't FC up a big initiative dice bonus.
You can get +2/+2d6 to init from Increase Reflexes for a drain value of 6, staying under the Focused Concentration threshold. Quite a lot, IMO, for a 5-karma spell plus a 12-karma quality, or a nominal value of 34k nuyen. In contrast, Wired Reflexes II costs 2 Essence and 150k, for a similar mechanical benefit.

I'm not saying FC isn't stupidly good.  Oh, it is.  Especially if you abuse a certain negative quality that I expected to see on this list in order to easily pay for FC3.

On the topic of AR Vertigo:  Prior to my discussions with the designers, I very much agreed with the OP in that it was a crippling effect.

Turns out that no, no it isn't really.  You can use your gear, even your commlink, without being in "AR User Mode".  Using your commlink in a manner similar to real life (holding it up to your head, looking at the screen, messaging your teammates by tapping out a message with your thumbtips, etc) doesn't rise to the level of what shadowrun calls "AR".  If you're driving your car, and you rely on the instrument panel rather than an immersive holographic Heads Up Display, that's not AR.  If you're doing a technical task and not making use of holographic technical orders floating in space, that's not AR.  Etc.
« Last Edit: <02-10-20/1048:37> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #14 on: <02-10-20/1054:48> »
Turns out that no, no it isn't really.  You can use your gear, even your commlink, without being in "AR User Mode".  Using your commlink in a manner similar to real life (holding it up to your head, looking at the screen, messaging your teammates by tapping out a message with your thumbtips, etc) doesn't rise to the level of what shadowrun calls "AR".  If you're driving your car, and you rely on the instrument panel rather than an immersive holographic Heads Up Display, that's not AR.  If you're doing a technical task and not making use of holographic technical orders floating in space, that's not AR.  Etc.
Hmm. I’d say these interactions are pretty common in Shadowrun; being out in public and referring to your physical commlink for directions or messaging must surely mark you out as either a performative Luddite hipster or desperately poor. And the third example, in particular, it might render you borderline unemployable. My headcanon is that AR is absolutely ubiquitous in and crucial to all kinds of jobs. Even manual labour on an assembly line is AR-guided.

Which could be interesting character background fodder for why someone with this quality might fall through the cracks and end up a criminal...