[penllawen]

Following an idle chat with u/D4rvill about how SR has changed through the years, I made a doc that walks you through an entire ranged combat resolution in SR 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e20A, 5e, and 6e. (I linked to this earlier in the latest "armour in SR6 is too weak / just right" flamewar thread, but I'd like to think it deserves a thread of its own.)

If you're interested in how SR has changed, or you've only played later editions and never seen just how different 1e-3e were, you might find this neat. Maybe. I hope.

(I'm linking the doc because the formatting is too complex to make work as a direct post. Sorry. Also, it might look like ass on mobile, as I had to tell Google Docs to make it A3/landscape to get the width I needed. More sorry.)

If people like this, I might do Manabolt next.

[Banshee]

Following an idle chat with u/D4rvill about how SR has changed through the years, I made a doc that walks you through an entire ranged combat resolution in SR 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e20A, 5e, and 6e. (I linked to this earlier in the latest "armour in SR6 is too weak / just right" flamewar thread, but I'd like to think it deserves a thread of its own.)

If you're interested in how SR has changed, or you've only played later editions and never seen just how different 1e-3e were, you might find this neat. Maybe. I hope.

(I'm linking the doc because the formatting is too complex to make work as a direct post. Sorry. Also, it might look like ass on mobile, as I had to tell Google Docs to make it A3/landscape to get the width I needed. More sorry.)

If people like this, I might do Manabolt next.

Very cool to see this laid out side by side for comparison  ... boy do I miss combat pool

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I miss TNs.

[penllawen]

I've added the same comparison but for mana bolt to the doc.

Gosh. Unless I've misunderstood some rules, mana bolt got nerfed quite hard in 5e, when its base damage changed from (force+net hits) to just (net hits.) It then got nerfed further in 6e, when the resistance test for it switched from (willpower) to (willpower+intuition.)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I can scarcely believe (adding armor to DR) is correct for a direct combat spell. Pg 132 of the 6e CRB seems quite insistent, however.

Note that the way direct spells work, in-universe, took some fundamental changes in 6we.

Every edition prior: an area direct spell would only affect potential targets in that area if there was LOS from the caster, rather than the center of that area.  For example, if you throw a manaball into a room, but a SecMook is up against the wall in between you and you can't see him, then he's unaffected by that manaball even if the spell is cast at a point literally right next to him.

In 6we: an area direct spell "comes from" the center of the area now, instead of from the caster.  The wall between the SecMook and the caster no longer shields him.  Basically, direct and indirect spells now work the same way, other than how their dodge pools are constructed.

And since there's now so little difference between direct and indirect spells, it kind of makes sense that armor boosts work for both.

[penllawen]

Nope, you lost me. Is this right?

(1) I’m hit with a direct combat spell. Armour helps my DR but not my resistance roll.

(2) I’m hit with an indirect combat spell. Armour helps my DR and my resistance roll.

That first one feels really wrong. Surely either armour contributes to DR and resistance; or it effects neither. Why would it help your DR but be bypassed by the spell’s damaging effects?

[adzling]

You're wasting your breath Pen.

6e makes no sense, it's a completely abstracted set of mechanics that bear no relation to reality in any sense.

4lb pixie hits as hard as a 400lb troll.

Bikini = Armored Suit +/- 1/3 point of damage.

Those two items alone beggar belief.

[Reaver]

Love the fact that in your example, in 6e, casting spells is a health pool net negative

When casting a spell hurts you more then the target, why cast spells???

And considering your examples are fairly "run of the mill"....









Yea... not looking good...

[Lormyr]

While that 6e manabolt is pretty lolsy out the gate, progression deeply favors the mage, just like other editions. The defender's body and willpower is going to hit a dicepool cap in the range of 12-18 absolute maximum, while the mage's magic attribute and foci rating have unlimited potential. Not to mention drain becomes laughable quickly with centering, centering foci, and increased attribute.

[Tecumseh]

Unless I've misunderstood some rules, mana bolt got nerfed quite hard in 5e, when its base damage changed from (force+net hits) to just (net hits.)

One player's nerf is another player's right-sizing.

Stunbolt was the bigger problem in 4E, in the sense that it was the only combat spell you needed most of the time. Low drain, targets a weak attribute, can affect astral entities, can easily be overcast, and so on. An F9 stunbolt doing base 9S and was undodgeable (you could soak, but this usually pit a casting pool of 12-15 vs. a soak pool of 3-6) was unbalanced compared to the other options available. You didn't even need the extra hits to increase damage; you could just drop them. 90% of the time you'd use stunbolt, and the other 10% of the time you were using lightning to take out a drone or a vehicle. Oh, and while you're at it, just cook up a Spirit of Man and have it start flinging stunbolts too.

Of course, one could argue that the pendulum swung too far the other way in 5E in favor of Indirect Combat spells, especially AoE spells that couldn't really be dodged. There's truth to that, but I saw a lot more spell and casting variety in 5E than I ever did in 4E.

[penllawen]

One player's nerf is another player's right-sizing.

Don't get me wrong; I don’t feel like I have an opinion on whether it was a good nerf or not. You make good points. (Mind you, that hasn’t stopped spirits getting - to my mind - hugely powerful in later editions.)

Another way to look at it is that manabolt is an infinitely concealable weapon [1]. Should a high-conceal weapon be equivalent to a pistol? Or an assault rifle? Or a Panther cannon? The former seems a bit more... in keeping.

So I’m not sure how I feel about the 5e version. Maybe it’s fine. Maybe (F/2) extra boxes of damage wouldn’t be a horrible idea. But the 6e version really does look very weak, though. I’m not sure why anyone would take it.

[1] sort of. People can detect you’re a mage, of course. But perhaps not easily, certainly less so than spotting a gun.

[Hobbes]

5E Combat spells scaled really lulzy.  They went from "whatever" to "Well after we resolve the spell damage we'll have to figure out how much damage you take from the building collapsing" with not a lot in between.

I don't have a feel for 6E spells though.

[Reaver]

While that 6e manabolt is pretty lolsy out the gate, progression deeply favors the mage, just like other editions. The defender's body and willpower is going to hit a dicepool cap in the range of 12-18 absolute maximum, while the mage's magic attribute and foci rating have unlimited potential. Not to mention drain becomes laughable quickly with centering, centering foci, and increased attribute.

That's assuming you can make it past the first run.

Look, I am not arguing about the fact that all awakened are back end powerful. I play the same character since 1e, just updated through the editions and is currently sitting around 18,000 karma AND is a mage. I freely admit that at a whim, I can melt 2 main battle tanks, and only suffer 3 stun drain on average. And I freely admit that no player should really have that amount of power.. especially when the other half of the party does not. (and strangely, I am not the "combat monster" of the group. That goes to the adept!)

BUT, at the same time, I have 30 years of playing the same character, with thousands of runs to get to that power level, and have had the advantage of not having magic deal twice the damage to me then to the target on every casting

Now, Maybe Manabolt isn't the optimal spell to use as an example due to changes to just manabolt..... And maybe flamethrower or some other single target attack spell would work out better.... But, well....yea like I said: "not looking good"..


Basically a mage casts what? 2 spells a run before he's useless by drain? (per the example) Why be a mage that casts spells? This is (depending on Spirits and summoning rules now) would make me more inclined to summon spirits to do my fighting/ casting... After all if (by the example) I am going to take 2 to 4 drain per spell, I might as well take that same 2 to 4 drain and summon a Spirit and use the spirit for the 2 to 4 services... Its just well... resource economy (in this case, my character's life!).

IF the manabolt example is correct and holds true through all the spells (and I have NO evidence of this), then there is just no reason to actually play a Mage. Sure you can play a gun bunny that summons Spirits. Or a Rigger that slings a spell... but a Mage? Not so much.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

IF the manabolt example is correct and holds true through all the spells (and I have NO evidence of this), then there is just no reason to actually play a Mage. Sure you can play a gun bunny that summons Spirits. Or a Rigger that slings a spell... but a Mage? Not so much.

It's correct (I haven't noticed any errors at least) but it's not a complete picture.

For example, taking 4 stun from drain is less impactful in 6we than it was in earlier editions.  Yes, your Condition Monitors are the same size, but damage goes away much easier. (Much, MUCH easier for those characters with full essence, like mages).

In addition to the usual Stim Patch "delay the problem" tactics, healing is easier, can be done more often, AND you can simply remove damage via edge expenditure on top of it all.  So even if you were to take 4 drain every time you cast a spell, it's (potentially) not crippling you.


Also note that the lessened impact of damage itself is part of the calculus in why armor doesn't add to soak.  Taking 3 damage in 6we is actually less of an impact than taking 3 damage in earlier editions, due to the greater ease in removing damage in 6we.

[BeCareful]

I never played in an edition with it, so I can't say for sure, but I probably would've liked Combat/Magic/Hacking pools.

4-5E Edge simplified it, to be sure, which makes it less finicky and has less of, "I use my entire pool to gank that guy, then hope nobody's going to turn a corner and attack me while I can't defend myself actively."