[MercilessMing]

Need to make sure my understanding of Multiple attacks and Full Auto are correct:

Multiple attacks - action is on pg 42:

A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action.

Multiple attacks - further explanation on 111:
Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success.

The way I read this, I think I can declare multiple SS attacks against one target or multiple targets, splitting my dice pool, essentially duplicating a FA attack, without paying the -6 AR penalty a FA attack would give me.  And I can do this with more powerful weapons, like emptying the cylinder of a super warhawk into a target.  There's also no mention of firing mode limitation.  So I can do this same thing but with BF, spending 40 ammo on 10 bursts as long as I had the ammo available.  Is that a sound reading of the rules?

Of course the caveat to that is that splitting a dicepool so many times is never a good idea, it will probably make everything miss and incur a glitch at least, if not a critical glitch.  With that in mind, what good is FA, ever (outside of anticipation)?  Multiple attacks is only ever good against 3-4 targets max, due to low dice pool numbers.

[Michael Chandra]

If you attack with an SS gun, you fire a single round. Multiple Attacks does not note it overrides that. So no, I see no support for your interpretation. Note that fire modes explicitly state when they support Multiple Attacks on firing a lot of times.

Addendum: Under the logic that you can just fire a lot of times, you're ALSO claiming you could wield a katana and attack 16x in a single second.

[Banshee]

Full auto let's you multi attack without spending the multi attack sction

[Leith]

Addendum: Under the logic that you can just fire a lot of times, you're ALSO claiming you could wield a katana and attack 16x in a single second.

I don't see a rule that says you can't, so wouldn't that be up to the GM?

Also, it looks to me like the multiple attack minor action does not let you attack the same target more than once. It doesn't say you can't but refers to splitting dice between multiple targets. FA specifically says you can and the combat options reference does as well but the latter makes no mention of the minor action, FA or the edge action.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

There's a conflict as to whether Multiple Attacks lets you make multiple attacks that affect the same target.  And that rules conflict awaits official clarification.  But it's my personal opinion that the rules for multiple attacks given on pg 42 are the primary reference, and that citation doesn't permit multiple attacks on one target.  By extension, the language on page 111 that says you CAN make multiple attacks on one target is therefore in conflict and incorrect.

By my understanding:

Multiple Attacks only permits you to attack multiple targets, with by RAW no limit on the number of attacks possible (although the GM can and should impose sanity, like you can't attack more targets than bullets you fire, and etc)

Full Auto lets you perform the a "Multiple Attacks-like" action without spending the Minor to actually perform a Multiple Attacks.  This not only saves on action economy, it also is the only way you CAN attack one target multiple times in the same attack.

Anticipation only works while you're spending the Multiple Attacks minor action (see pg. 47) so it's incompatible with the "Multiple Attacks-like" option FA offers.  Which, in turn, means you can't use Anticipation while you're shooting one guy X number of times.

[Michael Chandra]

Also, Anticipation works on TARGETS, not on ATTACKS, so it wouldn't help to begin with when attacking the same person twice.

[MercilessMing]

By my understanding:

Multiple Attacks only permits you to attack multiple targets, with by RAW no limit on the number of attacks possible (although the GM can and should impose sanity, like you can't attack more targets than bullets you fire, and etc)

Full Auto lets you perform the a "Multiple Attacks-like" action without spending the Minor to actually perform a Multiple Attacks.  This not only saves on action economy, it also is the only way you CAN attack one target multiple times in the same attack.

Thanks for the reply. What do you think about firing modes when it comes to multiple attack?  I read the rules as: any attack you make can be a multiple attack if you spend the minor action.  There’s no mention that multiple attacks always use base damage, so we should be able to take advantage of firing modes when making multiple attacks. 
That makes Full Auto the worst multi attack option: standard damage, terrible AR, and no Anticipation option. Saving a minor isn’t enough to redeem it.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...What do you think about firing modes when it comes to multiple attack?...

That's a problematic rules interaction that hasn't been untangled.

Let's lay out some groundwork before I tell you my opinion:

SS: the default attack that incurs no AR/DV modifiers. Costs 1 bullet.
SA: you expend 2 bullets, and get -2AR but +1DV.  Costs 2 bullets.
BF: you can do a narrow burst or a wide burst. Either option costs 4 bullets.
---BF Narrow Burst: -4 AR, +2 DV.
---BF Wide Burst: two SA shots
FA: -6 AR, but you get an "improved" version of Multiple Attacks that 1) costs no minor action and 2) can layer multiple attacks on individual targets. Costs 10 bullets.

Now, onto the problems.  Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack?  You're either getting -2AR, +1DV per 1 bullet spent on two targets, or you're spending 2 bullets per target to get those modifications.  So, the former option can't be right: SS establishes that you get NO AR/DV modifications if you sink 1 bullet into the attack (on that target).  The latter sounds better, right? Surely a SA mode gun that can go BAMBAM can also go BAMBAM, BAMBAM, right?  Well, Multiple Attacks doesn't limit you to 2 attacks.  You could theoretically attack as many NPCs as you have dice in the dice pool.  And, if you're planning on spending edge on Anticipation, you just might.  So let's say you're shooting 10 people with SA bursts.  The former assumption makes the lulzy argument that you're somehow shooting 10 people with 2 bullets, and the latter says your SA gun is pumping out 20 bullets at twice the maximum rate of fire of a fragging fully automatic weapon!

It gets worse when you look at BF and Multiple Attacks.
The BF Narrow Burst is "clearly" just a scaled up SA attack. Twice the bullets expended for twice the AR penalty and twice the DV bonus.  Everything I just said about SA and multiple attacks is twice as egregious here.  But even beyond doubling the egregiousness, is the existence of the Wide Burst, which explicitly is just two SA attacks that have to be assigned to two targets.  It's a weaker version of Multiple Attacks, which is fine... but what happens when you Multiple Attack with a Wide Burst?.  We're dividing by Zero here.

And of course you already pointed out the irrelevance of FA if other firing modes can just freely crank out 20-40 bullets per combat round.

So, what's my opinion? 
1) That the firing modes and multiple attacks rules are parallel mechanics that aren't meant stack with each other. You want to attack multiple people with a gun? You're "supposed" to use BF Wide Bursts or FA attacks, and those rules give you your parameters.
2) If that's too unfun, and you do combine Multiple Attacks with firearms: then you throw out the firing mode rules, other than the # of bullets you expend.  Resolve AR* and DV at the SS firing mode level for that gun, and cap the number of targets you may attack at the number of bullets expended at the firing mode you're using.


*edit: on second thought, probably ought to keep the AR penalty that corresponds with the firing mode bullet expenditure.  Otherwise you're making recoil-ignoring multiple attacks, which probably shouldn't be a thing.  But absolutely 100% no DV bonus if combining Firing Mode with Multiple Attacks.

Edit #2: I can see multiple attacks and firing mode rules actually interacting if you're using two guns at the same time.

[skalchemist]

As an aside, we found this whole interaction of multiple attacks and firing modes so confusing that we essentially rewrote the whole thing.  We got rid of the "multiple attack" minor action and instead just defined a few different types of attack actions:

* Careful Fire: 1 major action. only possible in SS/SA/BF firing modes. You target one enemy with a firearm.
* Rapid Fire: 1 Major action and 1 minor action. only possible in SS/SA/BF. You target one or two enemies with a firearm. Split your dice pool evenly into two packets. Assign these packets to either two targets that are close to each other, or a single target. (Note that in the case of SA mode, you are actually firing four rounds in quick succession by spamming the trigger, and in BF you are firing 8 rounds with two trigger pulls)
* Wide Burst: 1 Major action. only possible in BF firing mode. You target two enemies with a firearm that are fairly close to each other with a single trigger pull. This does NOT require a minor action. Attack rating is only at -2 but Damage Rating is only at +1 against each target. You must split your dice pool evenly between the two targets.
* Spray: 1 Major action. only possible in FA firing mode. You fill an area (roughly the size of a room) with a volume of fire, firing 10 rounds, or empty the weapons magazine as long as at least 6 rounds are left. Divide your dice pool evenly among any number of targets in that area, as long as each target is assigned at least one die. No damage rating change. This does NOT require a minor action.
* Melee Attack: 1 major action. attack a single target in melee. This can be done with a melee weapon or just your fists/kicks/elbows/whatever. This works exactly like the Attack Action on page 42. Cannot be combined with grappling, use the rules on page 111 for that.
* Go Crazy: 1 major action plus 1 minor action per extra target attacked. Attack any number of targets within melee range of you. Divide your dice pool between the number of targets evenly, rounding down. Otherwise attack rating and damage is the same as for a single Melee Attack. (note, the “per extra target” really is a change from the existing rules). The targets have to be close to each other to use Go Crazy; you only have 3 seconds per combat round. Cannot be combined with Grappling. Use the rules on page 111 for that, and Grappling can only target one opponent.
* Punch to the face/shot to the head: 1 Major and 1 Minor action. You can fire at a target in your current firing mode, and attack either the same target or a different target in melee range with your fists/knees/melee weapon as well. The dice pool for both attacks is divided by two. You use the worse of the attack ratings of the attacks. The firearm attack attack rating and damage are modified by firing mode. Note that this can be done even if the firearm is a two handed weapon (e.g. an assault rifle); you are kicking, rifle butting, or whatever to do the melee attack; treat the unarmed attack as “off-hand”.

These rules mean that you can only attack more than two targets with either Spray (full auto firearms) or Go Crazy (in melee).  It also means you can't fire two (or more) wide bursts or full autos or whatever; 3 seconds just isn't a lot of time, right? 

[Xenon]

With SS you attack just once. Multiple attack minor action is not used.


With SA you double tap the trigger while still aiming at the same target (which is resolved as one single attack even though you are actually firing two bullets at the target). Multiple attack minor action is not used.


With BF you either double tap while aiming at the same target (narrow burst, which is resolved as one single attack even though you are actually firing four bullets at the target). Multiple attack minor action is not used.

Or you aim at one target as you pull the trigger once and then aim at a second target as you pull the trigger a second time (wide burst, which is resolved as two separate SA attacks). Multiple attack minor action is used (which mean you can combine it with anticipation if you have the edge to spend).


With FA you attack multiple times (against multiple targets or the same target). The attack uses 10 bullets so you can't attack more times than that. Multiple attack minor action is not used, but you still split the dice pool between the attacks.


If you dual wield you can attack with both weapons at the same time (either two separate targets or the same target twice). Multiple attack minor action is used (which mean you can combine it with anticipation if both your weapons are firearms, you are aiming at different targets and you have the edge to spend).

Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack? 

By RAW this is not allowed, but feel free to use this house rule:

SA firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SS-mode shot. You may also fire just one round with one trigger pull, counting the attack as a SS-mode shot.

Well, Multiple Attacks doesn't limit you to 2 attacks. 

If there are only 2 opponents then how can you attack more than twice?
If you only tap the trigger twice then how can you attack more than twice?
If you only have 2 dice in your pool then how can you attack more than twice?

[skalchemist]

Xenon, I think your points are perfectly reasonable as house rules, but I don't think they can be claimed to be rules as written.  For example, how can you say you cannot use multiple attacks with SA mode?  I can't find that prohibition anywhere.

EDIT: your quoted text doesn't appear anywhere in my rules: this is what is in my rule pdf:

"SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1."

The phrase "you may also fire" is not anywhere in the rules pdf.

[Xenon]

Xenon, I think your points are perfectly reasonable as house rules

Please point out where it goes against RAW.

how can you say you cannot use multiple attacks with SA mode? 

Please point out where it says you can.

(I provided you with a perfectly good house rule that will allow you to do it).

your quoted text doesn't appear anywhere in my rules

What part of "feel free to use this house rule" was unclear?
None of the italic text in that quote can be found in the book.
If it was then it would not be much of a house rule, would it?

Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack? 

By RAW this is not allowed, but feel free to use this house rule

Here is the post i copied it from:

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29993.msg524173#msg524173

[skalchemist]

First Xenon, sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, that's my bad.  I didn't connect up the sentence about house rules to the quote for some reason.  Poor reading comprehension skills most likely.  Mea culpa.

As to the "show me where it says you can" I guess my reply would be "show me where it says you can't" and we could go round and round.   The Multiple Attack action text (pg 42) only says...

Multiple Attacks (I)

A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action.

The text on page 111 doesn't put any limits other than GM judgement (and even that only loosely stated) on this capability. 

Multiple Attacks

Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make
the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success.

The only other mentions of multiple attack are on the Anticipation section and in the full auto description.  To my mind, those two sections above seem to be saying pretty clearly you can use multiple attacks with pretty much anything ("shooting a bunch of bullets...throwing shuriken...sword in each hand").  Now, I don't personally LIKE that, and think it causes problems pretty quickly with the firing mode rules as has been already described in this thread.  But there is certainly no prohibition at all about using multiple attacks with any firing mode other than, maybe, full auto and the multiple attack says it can be used with attack major actions. 

[Xenon]

The Attack action on p. 42 mostly just describe that it is a major initiative action but that details can be found in the combat chapter.

Firing modes in the combat chapter describe all the ways you can use the different firing modes. The wide burst attack is the only firearm attack you explicitly get to combine with the multiple attack actions. No other firing mode explicitly tell us that it will be combined with a multiple attack action which mean you cannot combine it with any other firing mode. Just because it doesn't say you can't combine it does not automatically mean you can combine it.

Personally I think it stand to reason that you should also be able to combine it with a SA firing mode (hence my suggested house rule), but as written it don't.

Multiple attacks on p 111 describe how you split the dice pool whenever you for example shoot a bunch of bullets at multiple people but also when you attack the same target multiple times (the mechanic seem to be used for the wide burst attack, the full auto attack but also attacks taken while dual wielding a combination of firearms, melee weapons and throwing weapons).

The multiple attacks action on p. 42 mostly just describe that it is a minor initiative action that must be taken together with an attack major action. It also state the obvious that you need to have enough ammo and line of sight to your targets etc. The action seem to be used together with the wide burst attack or when dual wielding a combination of firearms, melee weapons and throwing weapons; but it does not make anything explicit or put any limitations in the action itself (as there might be other weapon type rules or action rules or firing mode rules in later books; but following Shadowrun rule structure they will explicitly list whenever you may combine them with the multiple attacks action)




In SR5 max number of targets were limited to your weapon skill / 2 and the multiple attacks free action could explicitly be combined with SA Burst (as long as the 3 targets were within medium range), Long BF (as long as the 2 targets were within medium range), multiple readied throwing weapons (as long as the targets were within medium range), melee attack from a single melee weapon (as long as all target where within reach), spell casting (when attempting to cast multiple spells at once) as well when dual wielding two weapons (firearm(s) and/or melee weapon(s)).

The only other mentions of multiple attack are on the Anticipation section and in the full auto description. 

The only attacks that currently take use of the multiple attacks minor action are Wide burst (firing modes chapter; two separate targets) and when dual wielding (offhand chapter; either two separate targets or two attacks on the same target).

Full auto also use the multiple attacks mechanics, but it does not use the multiple attack minor action. This attack seem to let you attack the same target more then twice and it also seem to let you attack more than two different opponents (if you wish).

Anticipation require a ranged action, a multiple attacks minor action and 4 edge (it does not seem as if full auto trigger the multiple attacks minor action).

[skalchemist]

You and I are reading this text completely differently, so much so that only one of us can be right, I think.  But it doesn't have to be me!  So I'll just leave it there and let it go.