[jtkirk22]

Hi,

CRB, p. 185:

Code: [Select]

Hosts have a general rating, which translates
into their Matrix attributes. These general ratings
are between 1 and 12. The ratings of these attributes
are usually (host rating), (host rating + 1),
(host rating + 2), and (host rating + 3), in any order
[...]
A host’s attributes are shared by itself and its
IC programs.
CRB, p. 186:

Code: [Select]

All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for
Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls.
In my opinion, this contradicts each other. Or am I wrong?

Kind regards!

[Michael Chandra]

Their rolls are mostly HRx2, and the same for AR and CM. However, their defense rolls use the Host attributes, and each IC has its own attribute selection for defense rolls.

[Finstersang]

OK, here´s what I wanted to write first:


Not in this case, but it´s a very understandable misunderstanding: It´s a super confusing use of the terms Attack (Attribute), rating and  Attack rating 

Note that the first snippet does not really use the term Attack rating. It´s talking about the "ratings" of the different Matrix Attributes (one of which is called Attack) in relation to the "rating" of the host. So the "rating" of the Host´s Attack Attribute could be Host rating +1, +2 etc. BUT that´s not the same as the "Attack rating" in the second snippet. It´s a poor choice of words that gives that impression.

The second snippet talks about the actual mechanical term Attack rating. That´s the value that is used when the host´s IC attacks a target to determine who gets Edge. So, the IC uses host rating*2 to perform the Attack and to determine Edge gain. If it hits, that´s when the Attack Attribute of the host comes into play...



And that´s when I looked into my nearby copy of the German rulebook to realize that the last sentence is, in fact, not true: IC damage is based on the host rating as well, and the Attack Attribute(!) is never ever even used.

And that´s when I looked into the Errata file to find this:
"Replace the second sentence with the following: All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls." (so, the same sentence jtkirk22 posted)

And that´s when I got mad-curious and looked into both the old and the updated version of the English Core rule book. And lo and behold!

Old version of the CRB: "All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls." (Again, the same sentence sjtkirk22 posted. The Errata doesn´t change anything about it!)

New version of the CRB: "All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. (So, the non-change in the Errata file turned into an actual change in the updated version).

*Rubs temples* The absolute effing state of editing...

So, assuming that the updated version of the CRB is the final one to go with:

• IC attacks with a dice pool of (host rating) x 2
• Uses the Host´s Attack Attribute as the Attack rating to determine Edge gain (unlike personas, who use Attack + Sleaze)
• IC damage is based on the host´s base rating (unlike Data Spikes, where it´s Attack/2).

Phew...

[Finstersang]

Their rolls are mostly HRx2, and the same for AR and CM.

Not in the updated version, see above 

However, their defense rolls use the Host attributes, and each IC has its own attribute selection for defense rolls.

Pretty sure (but yes, it´s once again not crystal clear) that these are supposed to the defense rolls for the target of the IC. They all include a mental Attribute - which hosts don´t have - and the Matrix Attribute is related to the effect of the IC. F.i., only the Jammer IC uses the Attack Attribute here, because that´s also the effect of it.

[Banshee]

Ok, this got chopped, edited, redone, edited again, and errata and still not made clear

Supposed to be ...

IC uses the Host matrix attributes whenever appropriate, but uses the Host general rating for any non-matrix skill or attribute when needed. This means IC use Host x 2 for condition monitor and most skill+attribute rolls including attack rolls.

[Xenon]

Yes, well... If we are talking house rules (but there is another thread for this already where I think house rules should be posted) then you basically have two options here I think;

• Skip the whole Host Rating +1, +2, +3, +4 mechanic and just house rule that all matrix attributes of a host is equal to host rating and then resolve everything according to regular cybercombat rules
• House rule that IC use Attack attribute of the host for calculating damage and use Attack and Sleaze attribute of the host for calculating Attack Rating according to regular cybercombat rules

Psst ... #2 is not a house rule and is how its supposed to work. Look for the change of wording in hopefully soon to be released errata. 

(emphasis mine)


Edit: Bah, you beat me to it :-)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

(real world) Attack Rating, (matrix) Attack Rating, and (astral) Attack Rating all use the same acronym "AR" to describe three discrete values.  And of course the acronym "AR" means any of those three things, PLUS the potential to mean the Augmented Reality matrix user mode.

Ditto for "DR" meaning any one of the Defense Ratings specific to one of Shadowrun's three worlds. Of course "DR" also is used to annotate another completely unrelated game mechanic: Device Rating.

And of course "Attack" is a matrix attribute, and when you talk about the rating of that matrix attribute it spawns all kinds of potential confusion with "Attack Rating" which is not the same thing as "Rating of the Attack Attribte".

Now with all that in mind, let's look at the language cited in the OP:

Hi,

CRB, p. 185:

Code: [Select]

Hosts have a general rating, which translates
into their Matrix attributes. These general ratings
are between 1 and 12. The ratings of these attributes
are usually (host rating), (host rating + 1),
(host rating + 2), and (host rating + 3), in any order
[...]
A host’s attributes are shared by itself and its
IC programs.
CRB, p. 186:

Code: [Select]

All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for
Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls.
In my opinion, this contradicts each other. Or am I wrong?

Kind regards!

As Banshee mentioned, page 185 is saying that IC shares the same ASDF stats as the Host that runs it.  Matrix Attack Rating is NOT on the ASDF array, although it usually is derived from it by adding Attack + Sleaze.  Usually.  Page 186 is giving an exception to that "usually" by saying IC's Matrix Attack Rating is instead calculated via Host Rating + Host Rating.

[Finstersang]

Absolutely marvelous, isn´t it? 

But again: The sentence in the most recent (to my knowledge) version of the CRB reads as:
"All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls."

Of course, the first part of this sentence is ambigous, but I something tells me that I´m supposed to read this as:
"All IC have an Attack Rating equal to the Host´s Attack Attribute and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. please help me I got this editing job on craigslist how do I convert to pdf?"

Because so far, that´s the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Absolutely marvelous, isn´t it? 

But again: The sentence in the most recent (to my knowledge) version of the CRB reads as:
"All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls."

Of course, the first part of this sentence is ambigous, but I something tells me that I´m supposed to read this as:
"All IC have an Attack Rating equal to the Host´s Attack Attribute and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. please help me I got this editing job on craigslist how do I convert to pdf?"

Because so far, that´s the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose.

Uh.  I'm not following you.  What the CRB does say makes sense.  The text you're proposing doesn't do what you say it does.  For the Host's Attack Rating to be relevant, the IC have to use it. (since Hosts don't attack people...)  The errata'd language is correctly quoted there, and it establishes that you DO use the Host's Attack Rating (rather than Attack Attribute)

Ghost, now I'm doing it too.  I confused your statement "Because so far, that´s the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose." for "Because so far, that´s the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Rating of a host an actual purpose."

Now that I'm on the same page with you... there's little (no?) value in giving a Host's Attack Attribute an "actual purpose".  It contributes to Attack Rating.  That's what it does.  That's ALL it does.  Now, yes, Hackers/Spiders have the extra role in evaluating Attack vs Sleaze when it comes to linked matrix actions, but IC don't use them.  Certainly Hosts don't.

[Finstersang]

Now that I'm on the same page with you... there's little (no?) value in giving a Host's Attack Attribute an "actual purpose".  It contributes to Attack Rating.  That's what it does.  That's ALL it does.  Now, yes, Hackers/Spiders have the extra role in evaluating Attack vs Sleaze when it comes to linked matrix actions, but IC don't use them.  Certainly Hosts don't.

I mean, if that´s supposed to be the reading her (Attack Rating of the IC is equal to the Attack Attribute of the Host), then the Attack Attribute of the host has an "actual purpose". It´s somewhat small, but it´s there. And it´s consistent for all types of IC, even the ones that don´t deal damage. 

If everything the IC does would only be derived from the host´s base rating (as it was the case in the older version), then it would would actually be pointless to give the Host a seperate Attack Attribute.

[Banshee]

IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack

Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response.  But I want to point out the bolded part.  It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.

[Finstersang]

IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack

Ah, OK. That means that the purpose of the Attack Attribute is tied with Sleaze. Huh... Yeah, but why not? It´s consistent, and I obviously overthought the "all IC use Host Attack Rating..." thing. Still, that whole sentence could reals use some clarification, given how many misinterprations this has spawned.

Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response.  But I want to point out the bolded part.  It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.

It would be indeed, but is that really RAW? 

AFAIK, Spiders can defend with the host attributes. More precisely, they can defend the Host, with a mix of their own mental stats and the hosts Matrix Attributes (if these are higher than their own). Granted, Attack is used in a defense pool in against one action (Jack out). Apart from this and the host´s Attack rating (which is Sleaze+Attack according to Banshee), the host´s Attack Attribute is not utilized RAW.

(Nothing against it, btw. It means that I can safe myself the time to monitor the spider´s Matrix Attributes seperately as long as they are not vastly better than the host or the spider doesn´t "pursuit" the hacker outside the hosts)

[Banshee]

IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack

Ah, OK. That means that the purpose of the Attack Attribute is tied with Sleaze. Huh... Yeah, but why not? It´s consistent, and I obviously overthought the "all IC use Host Attack Rating..." thing. Still, that whole sentence could reals use some clarification, given how many misinterprations this has spawned.

Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response.  But I want to point out the bolded part.  It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.

It would be indeed, but is that really RAW? 

AFAIK, Spiders can defend with the host attributes. More precisely, they can defend the Host, with a mix of their own mental stats and the hosts Matrix Attributes (if these are higher than their own). Granted, Attack is used in a defense pool in against one action (Jack out). Apart from this and the host´s Attack rating (which is Sleaze+Attack according to Banshee), the host´s Attack Attribute is not utilized RAW.

(Nothing against it, btw. It means that I can safe myself the time to monitor the spider´s Matrix Attributes seperately as long as they are not vastly better than the host or the spider doesn´t "pursuit" the hacker outside the hosts)

Yes it's technically RAW. I don't have my books currently available to quote page numbers.

Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.

Also granted using the word "defend" is not the best choice... in my defense matrix attributes are exclusively used only passively or defensively.

The purpose of allowing spiders to use the host was to allow a GM to track less gear and only need to worry about the attributes and skills of a spider. From an "in universe" point of view this allows corporations to higher spiders with less technical investment.

I imagine this to manifest in a few ways ... only "offsite" spiders will have decks and jacks, and if all "onsite" most likely only one spider (assuming a host that maintains on-site spiders also has more than one) would have a deck and/or jack

[Michael Chandra]

I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?