[Sugarpink]

Hello! I have a question about the following bit regarding Technomancers:

Technomancers can
experience AR, VR, and hot-sim with no extra gear,
and they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically
requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178)
with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.

from page 189.

Does this apply to the Technomancer only (while they are just going about their day), or does this also apply to their persona? I think if it applied to their persona, it'd make them absolute stealth monsters during hacking, but maybe that was the intention. It's not 100% clear to me.

[Xenon]

Matrix Perception have two uses.

1. Spot silent running networks
2. Analyze icons more in detail

Whenever you analyze a persona icon a single net hit will give you basic information, two net hits will give you more specific information and five net hits will reveal if the persona is actually a technomancer or not.



Edit. Actually, rereading RAW I am not so sure anymore

I guess this could also actually mean that you mean 5 net hits on your opposed matrix perception test to spot a living persona that is trying to hide, but in that case you are right - they would become absolute stealth monsters.

[Sugarpink]

But this means, the part I quoted does not have any effect on detecting a TM that's running silent, right? That's still Matrix Perception vs. Willpower + Sleaze, right?

Edit: Just saw your edit Yeah, that's the thing I am unsure about.

[Michael Chandra]

Sounds about right. So first of all you must equal or beat the TM's hits (which is the Matrix Perception vs Willpower + Sleaze test), second your raw hits (not net hits) must be 5+. So basically if the TM rolls below 5 on Willpower + Sleaze, it's treated as if they rolled 5 hits.

[Sugarpink]

Sounds about right. So first of all you must equal or beat the TM's hits (which is the Matrix Perception vs Willpower + Sleaze test), second your raw hits (not net hits) must be 5+. So basically if the TM rolls below 5 on Willpower + Sleaze, it's treated as if they rolled 5 hits.

That's how we used the rule in our first campaign. I just wanted to check with other people if we were doing it right.

[Finstersang]

Sounds about right. So first of all you must equal or beat the TM's hits (which is the Matrix Perception vs Willpower + Sleaze test), second your raw hits (not net hits) must be 5+. So basically if the TM rolls below 5 on Willpower + Sleaze, it's treated as if they rolled 5 hits.

... Which I find a terrible rule TBH, because it basically means that Technomancers have a permanent Matrix Invisibility Cloak on every time. Not only is this extremely OP (and that´s coming from a huge advocate for a TM buff!), it also makes their own Willpower + Sleaze Test against Matrix detection almost obsolete, which feels weird.

Like Xenon, I was under the impression that the 5 Hit threshold was supposed to be for recognizing that a Persona is in fact a Technomancer, and not to percieve that Persona in the first place. But from what I´v heard lately, Chandra´s version seems to be the intended reading. Whelp. At least the current consensus is not to stack that threshold on top of the Willpower + Sleaze Hits 

So yes, you are probably doing it right. I´ll stick to being wrong though

[Sugarpink]

Sounds about right. So first of all you must equal or beat the TM's hits (which is the Matrix Perception vs Willpower + Sleaze test), second your raw hits (not net hits) must be 5+. So basically if the TM rolls below 5 on Willpower + Sleaze, it's treated as if they rolled 5 hits.

... Which I find a terrible rule TBH, because it basically means that Technomancers have a permanent Matrix Invisibility Cloak on every time. Not only is this extremely OP (and that´s coming from a huge advocate for a TM buff!), it also makes their own Willpower + Sleaze Test against Matrix detection almost obsolete, which feels weird.

Like Xenon, I was under the impression that the 5 Hit threshold was supposed to be for recognizing that a Persona is in fact a Technomancer, and not to percieve that Persona in the first place. But from what I´v heard lately, Chandra´s version seems to be the intended reading. Whelp. At least the current consensus is not to stack that threshold on top of the Willpower + Sleaze Hits 

So yes, you are probably doing it right. I´ll stick to being wrong though

At least, my TM player now can't complain anymore about being too weak like they did in 5E. 

[Banshee]

No, this was submitted for errata and just have not shown up yet for some reason.

Seeing a persona is standard matrix perception even for TMs ... but to know that it is a TM and not just another decker requires 5 hits

[Finstersang]

No, this was submitted for errata and just have not shown up yet for some reason.

Seeing a persona is standard matrix perception even for TMs ... but to know that it is a TM and not just another decker requires 5 hits

Oh, nice to hear that 

(Strange, was so sure that I read the opposite a while ago... Probably a misunderstanding.)

@Sugarpink: Don´t be too sad, this will hardly break TMs. From a certain perspective, it´s a buff as well. It means that finding and identifiying a TM are two seperate things, which decreases the chance of getting bagged and cut open by the Megacons 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Errata aside, here's another way to look at what IS there by RAW:

Per the rules of Matrix Perception, extra hits can give extra information at GM discretion.

The bit on pg 178 is talking not about how hard they are to SEE, but giving an explicit benchmark about getting extra information.  In order to learn that a Persona icon is in fact a Living Persona (i.e. Technomancer) rather than a normal person's Persona (generated by a device) it takes 5 hits, rather than "GM discretion".

[Sugarpink]

Errata aside, here's another way to look at what IS there by RAW:

Per the rules of Matrix Perception, extra hits can give extra information at GM discretion.

The bit on pg 178 is talking not about how hard they are to SEE, but giving an explicit benchmark about getting extra information.  In order to learn that a Persona icon is in fact a Living Persona (i.e. Technomancer) rather than a normal person's Persona (generated by a device) it takes 5 hits, rather than "GM discretion".

Except the original wording is

they are difficult to spot in the Matrix ... requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178)
with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.

So the original wording does explicitly talk about that they are difficult to see. I can accept both interpretations. But this needs errata badly.

Edit: And the reference to pg. 178 doesn't help because pg. 178 discusses both, analyzing visible icons and finding hidden ones.

[Banshee]

Errata aside, here's another way to look at what IS there by RAW:

Per the rules of Matrix Perception, extra hits can give extra information at GM discretion.

The bit on pg 178 is talking not about how hard they are to SEE, but giving an explicit benchmark about getting extra information.  In order to learn that a Persona icon is in fact a Living Persona (i.e. Technomancer) rather than a normal person's Persona (generated by a device) it takes 5 hits, rather than "GM discretion".

Except the original wording is

they are difficult to spot in the Matrix ... requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178)
with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.

So the original wording does explicitly talk about that they are difficult to see. I can accept both interpretations. But this needs errata badly.

Edit: And the reference to pg. 178 doesn't help because pg. 178 discusses both, analyzing visible icons and finding hidden ones.

I agree ... as the author it made perfect sense to me at the time. Replace spot and seen in that sentence with identify.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

@Sugarpink: Don´t be too sad, this will hardly break TMs. From a certain perspective, it´s a buff as well. It means that finding and identifiying a TM are two seperate things, which decreases the chance of getting bagged and cut open by the Megacons 

Also true. The CRB totally doesn't even go into the lore, but this gif sums up how the megacorps built and sustain the Matrix at the expense of dead Technomancers:

[Banshee]

@Sugarpink: Don´t be too sad, this will hardly break TMs. From a certain perspective, it´s a buff as well. It means that finding and identifiying a TM are two seperate things, which decreases the chance of getting bagged and cut open by the Megacons 

Also true. The CRB totally doesn't even go into the lore, but this gif sums up how the megacorps built and sustain the Matrix at the expense of dead Technomancers:

That's because the author of the 6e matrix chapter absolutely HATES that whole concept and refuses to acknowledge it. Even though I couldn't reverse it, I also didn't have to support it!

[Sugarpink]

@Sugarpink: Don´t be too sad, this will hardly break TMs. From a certain perspective, it´s a buff as well. It means that finding and identifiying a TM are two seperate things, which decreases the chance of getting bagged and cut open by the Megacons 

Also true. The CRB totally doesn't even go into the lore, but this gif sums up how the megacorps built and sustain the Matrix at the expense of dead Technomancers:

That's because the author of the 6e matrix chapter absolutely HATES that whole concept and refuses to acknowledge it. Even though I couldn't reverse it, I also didn't have to support it!

At least I am not the only one who dislikes that concept.