[Predator1]

  I have been thinking of ways to make Ar and Df more important.

When compared ar vs df if there is 4pts you gain edge. Every 2pts beyond that gain 1pt of damage or auto soak 1. Granted this means cyberlimbs etc. Needs a limit on armor.

I think this would help the extremes out quite a bit.

I think the math should kinda work for most situations.

[Michael Chandra]

So 20 AR vs a face would become an instakill again? I think that's way too big an advantage.

[Predator1]

 Sure if the face has no armor and gets hit by troll with combat axe.  I can't see how it would be any more dangerous then any other edition of shadowrun.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Adding more ways to do more damage is a slippery slope.

Not that there shouldn't be more ways to do more damage... surely the expansion books will bring some.  But just saying... it's delicate.  this is an edition where it's easy to do a little damage, but hard to do a LOT.  It's easy to change that balance... but changing it carries 2nd order effects.

[Michael Chandra]

Sure if the face has no armor and gets hit by troll with combat axe.  I can't see how it would be any more dangerous then any other edition of shadowrun.

A character with 3 Body and 4 Armor has 7 DR. There are several guns with AR 11, including ones with that at Medium Range. Add Smartgun, Bipod and Vision Magnification, and that AR becomes 17. That's +3 damage on a very simple attack. Not 'no armor and troll with combat axe'. We're not even looking at grunt groups here, where 5 enemies basically get +2 damage and +2 dice. And of course APDS damage-penalty no longer actually matters.

Again: In my opinion, your idea scales far too fast. It reintroduces the exact problems that the current rules were meant to resolve, namely extreme lethality to squishier targets and an extreme armor-arms-race. Rewarding several points of damage like this makes an incredibly large difference. So it overshoots.

[Sugarpink]

I obviously don't have as much insight into 6E as Michael and SSDR but from playing previous editions a lot I do know that stacking damage always lead to... brutal results. Such a rule would need to be tested very thoroughly before being introduced (and power gamers are still going to find ways for abuse anyway).

[Lormyr]

I would also prefer to see AR and DR scale further than they currently do, but your proposal is unbalanced in my opinion. Adding new effects at double and triple AR vs. DR would be cool.

Double should be fairly minor, like one of: +1 damage for attacker or -2 defense dice for defender for superior AR, or +2 damage resistance dice or +2 defense dice for superior DR.

Triple could be a fairly major effect though, since achieving it will be very difficult. Perhaps one of: +3 damage for attacker, or automatic knockdown, or free knockout blow attempt for superior AR, or 2 free hits for damage resistance, or +4 defense dice, or a melee attacker's weapon breaks upon striking you for superior DR.

Something like this would also eliminate my armor complaints, since you would definitely need it to achieve a double or triple rating.

[Finstersang]

AR/DR could definetely use more nuances than just "You get Edge/I get Edge/No one gets Edge" (and that´s only when none of the dozens of other Edge gain limitations don´t come into play  ). It seems like a good idea to introduce more "pivot points" for more extreme AR/DR differences. Maybe the target numbers for a hit changes, so that 3´s are counted as successes as well? You could even dish out more Edge, although that may also require you to change the current Edge limits (not a bad idea IMO, the current limit of 2 Edge per Round is quite dumb anyways). I´d say it´s also a good idea to further divide the "neutral" Zone between the two existing "Pivot points". Here´s my current solution:

• If the AR is 8 points higher as the DR (or vice versa), a second point of Edge goes to the winner. A third can be earned at a difference of 12 or higher. However, I also houseruled the Edge Limit: There is no limit on how much Edge you can earn in a single combat turn (or even a single action),  but you can only safe up to one point of Edge for later - the rest has to be used for immediately or expires.
• RAW, the Attacker always hits on a tie. I use AR/DR for that as well: If the DR is higher, the Attack does no damage (narratively: Just a few minor scratches) and if the AR is higher, the Attack hits (with no net hits added to the base damage). If AR and DR are tied as well, flip a coin. Doesn´t seem like a big deal, but ties on attack rolls happen rather often.
• (I also added completely different effects to APDS Ammo and Flechettes and a bunch of other things that tickle AR and DR. But let´s focus on the general mechanics here  )

Giving out a flexible bonus relative to the excess over the magical +4/-4 threshold like you suggested isn´t too bad either. But I too think that your suggestion with the flat bonus damage or bonus soak doesn´t strike the right balance, tho. F.i., your calculation turns Firing can turn firing multiple bullets into a Zero-Sum-Game, where the lowered AR of your double tap negates the bonus damage from it. And since the AR/DR differences can be a bit extreme at times, the impact is just too strong. But what about just giving out the excess in bonus dice?

That might work, at least for the soak test: AR 6 against DR 12 = +2 Bonus Dice on the Soak test. Doesn´t sound so crazy to me. Wouldn´t touch the Defense test, though! Hitting dodgy targets is hard enough as it is. Also, Armor is supposed to mitigate damage from a hit, not making you dodge better.

For the Attack test: Not a good idea either, it would turn High AR-Weapons into Autohit generators. However, you could once again substract the excess from the soak pool. AR 12 against DR 6 = MINUS 2 Dice on the Soak test... Doesn´t sound so crazy either.

Heh. Maybe I change my current houserule... 

[Shinobi Killfist]

I generally don't like edge moves, but maybe reducing the costs of relevant edge moves when your Ar is sufficiently past the defense.  Similar to some of the totem benefits I saw.  Something like edge boosts for firearm/close combat tests cost 1 less if your AR is 8 higher than the DV.

[Leith]

]
Giving out a flexible bonus relative to the excess over the magical +4/-4 threshold like you suggested isn´t too bad either. But I too think that your suggestion with the flat bonus damage or bonus soak doesn´t strike the right balance, tho. F.i., your calculation turns Firing can turn firing multiple bullets into a Zero-Sum-Game, where the lowered AR of your double tap negates the bonus damage from it. And since the AR/DR differences can be a bit extreme at times, the impact is just too strong. But what about just giving out the excess in bonus dice?

That might work, at least for the soak test: AR 6 against DR 12 = +2 Bonus Dice on the Soak test. Doesn´t sound so crazy to me. Wouldn´t touch the Defense test, though! Hitting dodgy targets is hard enough as it is. Also, Armor is supposed to mitigate damage from a hit, not making you dodge better.

For the Attack test: Not a good idea either, it would turn High AR-Weapons into Autohit generators. However, you could once again substract the excess from the soak pool. AR 12 against DR 6 = MINUS 2 Dice on the Soak test... Doesn´t sound so crazy either.

Heh. Maybe I change my current houserule... 

So, +1 DV for 3 pt diff?

[Xenon]

Or just play it as written... ;-)

You can already lower your AR in exchange for DV (double tapping by using semi automatic, burst fire narrow burst), reduce your dice pool in exchange of DV (Call a Shot, Full Auto/Dual Wielding), trade subtley for DV (explosive ammo) and trade Edge for DV (Shank 1 Edge Action while Call a Shot using blades, Called Shot - Vitals 5 Edge Action).

You feel the edition is not deadly enough as is or what??

[Sugarpink]

Or just play it as written... ;-)

You can already lower your AR in exchange for DV (double tapping by using semi automatic, burst fire narrow burst), reduce your dice pool in exchange of DV (Call a Shot, Full Auto/Dual Wielding), trade subtley for DV (explosive ammo) and trade Edge for DV (Shank 1 Edge Action while Call a Shot using blades, Called Shot - Vitals 5 Edge Action).

You feel the edition is not deadly enough as is or what??

And also... net hits.

[Lormyr]

Or just play it as written... ;-)

You feel the edition is not deadly enough as is or what??

Some of us are unsatisfied with that is currently written. :p

[Finstersang]

]
Giving out a flexible bonus relative to the excess over the magical +4/-4 threshold like you suggested isn´t too bad either. But I too think that your suggestion with the flat bonus damage or bonus soak doesn´t strike the right balance, tho. F.i., your calculation turns Firing can turn firing multiple bullets into a Zero-Sum-Game, where the lowered AR of your double tap negates the bonus damage from it. And since the AR/DR differences can be a bit extreme at times, the impact is just too strong. But what about just giving out the excess in bonus dice?

That might work, at least for the soak test: AR 6 against DR 12 = +2 Bonus Dice on the Soak test. Doesn´t sound so crazy to me. Wouldn´t touch the Defense test, though! Hitting dodgy targets is hard enough as it is. Also, Armor is supposed to mitigate damage from a hit, not making you dodge better.

For the Attack test: Not a good idea either, it would turn High AR-Weapons into Autohit generators. However, you could once again substract the excess from the soak pool. AR 12 against DR 6 = MINUS 2 Dice on the Soak test... Doesn´t sound so crazy either.

Heh. Maybe I change my current houserule... 

So, +1 DV for 3 pt diff?

Boils down to this on average. For clarity: That would be for the the Excess after the point the Attacker/Defender would get Edge. So a a difference of 7 averages for 1 DV, a difference of 10 for 2 DV, a difference of 13 for 3...

Since the Damage Increase is actually a Soak dice penalty, the increase in "deadliness" is somewhat limited against squishier targets - Can´t go lower than Zero. Not a bad thing either IMO. The fact that this might remove some weaker soak rolls entirely could even be considered as streamlining 

I think I´ll stick to my current "Edge Bonanza" houserule for now, because the other idea would be a bit redundant with my current Strength in Melee-houserule. Also, I like a more "edgy" Gameplay, that´s one of the reasons why I houseruled it jn the first place. But adding/removing soak dice still seems like a viable idea. 

[Leith]

If the problem is that armor has no direct impact on damage then removing the 2 per turn edge limit is a good idea. Unless your edge attribute is 7 youre going ti spend some on combat, but you may feel inclined to save up a bit. If you can somehow gain 4 edge in a combat turn and spend it... armor is a lot more important.