[Bull]

To 99% of the population, Clip and Magazine are interchangeable terms.  The fact that Shadowrun uses both is...  strange.

Hrmm.  We need new terminology then. 

Bull

[CanRay]

I'm going to shut my soypie hole before I get myself in big trouble.

Firearms terminology is old and dated.  "Standard Rounds" (Regular, ordinary, boring bullets) are known as "Ball Rounds", dating back to pretty much the Flintlock days.  Despite not being ball-shaped any longer.

[Charybdis]

To 99% of the population, Clip and Magazine are interchangeable terms.  The fact that Shadowrun uses both is...  strange.

Hrmm.  We need new terminology then. 

Bull

I vote for 'Gun-Bullet-Holder-Thingie', aka the GBHT. Thus, we have it interchangable with Drums, Magazines and Clips, and you can define price of GBHT's by Ammo capacity.

GBHT <20 bullet capacity = X
GBHT 20-40 bullet capacity = Y
GBHT 40+ bullet capacity = Z

Done and Done. (And GBHT is no bigger a word than Clip, thus saving valuable printer ink....)

Zany, but workable

[CanRay]

I feel like FastJack after he tried to watch a show legally instead of pirate it.

[savaze]

Actually clips load magazines... Usually we hear about it in reference to loading internal mags.  It became widespread in WW2, but through the years it trickled down to 'heavy users' and collectors. 

stripper clips/spoons/mag loaders - small arms/ARs/any external mag
speedloaders - generic term (revelover SLs are not really a clip but...)
moon clips/Bianchi speed strips - revolvers
quickloaders - mag-tube shotguns

I think it's an interesting twist when you cap how many mags of ammo players can carry, but that moves into the encumbrance realm that 4e avoids.

More insight from an insomniac...

[Sid]

Well, there's smart pouches to stick on your combat vest - they only hold one type of clip, but can fit three into one pouch. (Arsenal, p62)
I find this difficult to visualise, unless it's more like a clip to hold your clips in a neat row, and you can just pull them straight out the bottom.

[Redwulfe]

This must have be3en one of those house rules to real rule situations for me. you use a house rule for so long that you forget it was not a real rule at all. We always bought ammo by gun so my character carried around Ares Predator clips that the ammo and clips only worked on my ares. Each gun had to buy ammo for separately. I guess it is because when they listed equipment on archetype sheets they separated out the ammo. So for example look at the Street samurai archetype it lists in his gear a Ingram Smartgun X [w/ sound Suppressor, Gas vent3, 10 clips of Regular Ammo] and he also has a Stoner-Ares M202 [internal Smartgun System, w/2 100 round belt of regular Ammo] We thought because they listed regular ammo with the gun instead of just say that the Ingram had 10 extra clips and the Stoner had 2 extra belts and then latter listing that the character had 300 rounds of Regular ammo that ammo was specific to each gun for the simplicity of getting rid of caliber. It made it simple, and kept everyone on there toe where ammo was concerned. but after actually rereading the rules the class of gun not the specific gun itself determines the caliber. Well you live in learn, this will make my players a bit more happy.

Red

[CanRay]

Ammunition and Magazines (Ugh, FINE, CLIPS!  Heathens.) were usually firearm specific, and have been for quite awhile.  It's rare you can get companies or countries to agree on standardization when it comes to this, and usually there's a lot of fighting over it for some reason.  (The only reason it happened at all, I bet, is due to the Cold War.).

I think idea is that it makes it more difficult for soldiers of an opposing force to use your own equipment against you as easily.  Using captured weapons is usually not a good idea, especially if a weapon has a distinctive sound (The AK is infamous for it's sound, for example.), as soldiers can spray-and-pray towards a sound in the dark or through concealment (Jungle, interior walls, AR Spam, etc.).  This is one of the reasons US Soldiers didn't use AKs during Vietnam when they first got their hands on the M-16, "The Rifle That Cleans Itself", and all the fun that entailed in that.

Assault Rifles have pretty much Standardized as NATO/Soviet styles.  Pistols have kept the proprietary magazines/clips/punch-you-in-the-junk-terms somehow, don't ask me how.  Politics, probably.

[Bull]

If you wanted to be a real EvilGM, have each gun manufacturer use a slightly different bullet size, so that Ares Preadator Rounds are not compatible with Colt Manhunter rounds.  Each Megacorp could have it's own size/standardization. 

Bull

[EmperorPenguin]

After all, every Megacorp is going to want the customers that buy their guns to be buying their ammo as well.

But unless you can patent caliber, everyone will be manufacturing everyone's ammunition.  The competition would drive down prices and corps would want competitors out of the way.

Net result - more shadowruns.

[The_Gun_Nut]

As my handle might imply, I have a passing familiarity with fireams (not nearly as much as my handle implies, but "The_Gun_Liker" or "The_Gun_Person-That-Enjoys-Shooting-At-The-Range" just doesn't hold the same weight).  While RL might have a thousand-and-one different calibers and casings for pistols, for example, having that kind of complexity in-game is problematic (at best).  SR's simple solution works best in this case, even if it is shockingly unrealistic.

I, personally, would like to see more types of ammunition from RL work their way into SR.  Like HEAT or AP-I or AP-EX-I ammo.  Of course, some of these might have been abstracted into the damage code already, but I think there is room to grow, here.

[Bull]

After all, every Megacorp is going to want the customers that buy their guns to be buying their ammo as well.

But unless you can patent caliber, everyone will be manufacturing everyone's ammunition.  The competition would drive down prices and corps would want competitors out of the way.

Net result - more shadowruns.

Ever wondered why the Predator I, II, and III aren't listed in the core book, just the Predator IV?  They were phased out, because too many other corps were manufacturing the specialty size ammo for them.  Planned obsolescence, and cheap manufacturing designed to wear out after a couple years of semi-regular use.  It's tough to even FIND older model predators anymore that are still in working condition without overhauling and replacing half the mechanisms.  And as cheap as a Predator is, might as well scrap it and buy a new one.



Yes, I really want to see the corps pushing to become bigger bastards.  They CONTROL THE FRAGGING WORLD.  Shy of going to war with each other (And destabilizing the worlds economy in the process), they can do damn well whatever they want.  And since 99.999% of the population in Shadowrun are complete and utter sheep suckling on the corporate tit, they just accept whatver comes along without complaint, protest, or even a second thought.

(That said, yeah, simplicity in the rules is better.  And the problem with SR4's damage code system is it leaves very little margin for different ammunition types and the like.  There's just not enough variance in the damage codes to do much that is all that interesting with them)

[LonePaladin]

1We always bought ammo by gun so my character carried around Ares Predator clips that the ammo and clips only worked on my ares. Each gun had to buy ammo for separately. I guess it is because when they listed equipment on archetype sheets they separated out the ammo. So for example look at the Street samurai archetype

*snip*


Yeah, this mindset works out pretty well. When my players were making their characters, I'd assume that each gun came with one empty clip if they used 'em (even nowadays, that's typical), then ask them "Pick an ammo type, tell me how many clips/reloads you want of it." That way, they can say "My Ingram Smartgun has X clips of regular ammo, and X clips of flechette"; keeps it simple. They can then note how much a reload costs, and they're good.


Yes, they're using the terminology a little wrong, but they do draw a distinction: SR4A, p. 324. The define a "removable clip" and an "internal magazine" as separate reload types. Basically anything listing a clip or drum has the ammo in a separate item; internal magazines, muzzle-loaders, and break-action require you to open up the firearm in some way to insert more ammo.


The gun-enthusiasts in my group understand the distinctions, and don't nitpick the terminology.

[savaze]

The distinction between clip and magazine is only cringe worthy for a few, unfortunately, thanks to Hollywood and the like.

Ever wondered why the Predator I, II, and III aren't listed in the core book, just the Predator IV?  They were phased out, because too many other corps were manufacturing the specialty size ammo for them.  Planned obsolescence, and cheap manufacturing designed to wear out after a couple years of semi-regular use.  It's tough to even FIND older model predators anymore that are still in working condition without overhauling and replacing half the mechanisms.  And as cheap as a Predator is, might as well scrap it and buy a new one.

Those dirty rotten corps, the term bastard covered bastards comes to mind.  I sense 3rd world countries using ammo as currency coming on (ala Fallout, Metro 2033, and dozen of post-apocalyptic literature)... 

[CanRay]

If you wanted to be a real EvilGM, have each gun manufacturer use a slightly different bullet size, so that Ares Preadator Rounds are not compatible with Colt Manhunter rounds.  Each Megacorp could have it's own size/standardization. 

Bull

This used to be the case "Back in the day"...  Only NATO and Soviet muscle standardized anything really.  9mm Luger/Parabellum being the rare exception.  It really got bad when some were the same diameter, but different lengths (.45 Long Colt Revolver and .45 S&W were two different rounds.  The Colt Peacemaker could load and shoot both, but the S&W No.3 Schofield could only use .45 S&W.).

On the flipside, firearms come out in different calibers as well.  Sometimes they're sold as different models (Like Glocks), but sometimes they use the same name and just have the caliber stamped on the side.

So, yeah, you got your Browning Ultrapower, but is it in 10mm Ares Caseless or .45 ACCP or 12.7mm Caseless Action Express?

Making ammunition common, however, can also be a selling point.  A lot of Cowboys bought "Frontier" models of revolvers, as they were cambered to use the same rounds as a '73 Winchester.  Doesn't matter where you reach for your bullets, you can reload either weapon.  Just hope they have .44-40 Winchester at the General Store when you're running low on ammo, and they don't have it on order.

So, either the Corporate Court has standardized Caseless Calibers (Which is how I describe the "Simple System"), or the Corps have gone all out back to the "Good Old Days" of unique calibers ("Complex System".).  Tailor it to your group's likes and needs as you will.