[ismodai]

hi guys, I´m struggling trying to understand how does "touch" range works on detection spells like clairvoyance, do you touch a place and then leave? what does "move the point mean"? I touch a door and then the focus moves inside by my will and I see in the room?

thx

[Michael Chandra]

It's a kind of buff spell: Touch the target, and give them (yourself if you're the target) the ability to use the Detection.

Detection spells are typically cast on a subject
that may be the caster (Range: Touch); the sensory
enhancement often occurs in an area separate from
the subject. Unlike many spells that require line of
sight to the target, the area of sensory expansion
can be separated from the subject by walls or barriers.
The range for this area is the (Magic rating of
the caster + Spellcasting test net hits) meters.

Mage Frostburn recently picked up Clairvoyance, and gives it a go. She touches Rigger Emu and casts Clairvoyance on Emu to use.

Frostburn amped the spell twice area-wise, turning it from a 2m-radius into a 6m radius and raising the Drain from 3 to 5. Frostburn has 9 Spellcasting and 6 Magic, and scores 5 hits. This means the max reach of Clairvoyance can be 6 (Frostburn's Magic) + 5 (Frostburn's hits) meters away from Emu. So Emu can move a Clairvoyance area of 6m radius (so 12m diameters) around with her mind, perceiving in said area instead of with her own senses, and max 11m away from her.

Emu is currently located in an office, there's a corridor next to that, and on the other side is the Security Room. She now uses a Minor Action to Shift the Clairvoyance from around her to into the Security Room, checking on how many guards there are, what kind of gear they are wearing and how alert they are. The area of the spell is bigger than the security room, so she also notices the guard in the corridor that's sneaking a smoke around what appears to be a broken smoke detector.

One disclaimer: I assume the max range applies to the entire area, not just the center. It might be intended that you can reach further, that if the area is centered at max distance, you can perceive further than the max distance. I consider that unlikely but no guarantees.

[Xenon]

Good explanation. The hardest part that people seem to grasp is what the Touch range thing means when it comes to detection spells.


EDIT:

Interesting that the spell got deliberately changed from the previous edition.

In previous edition both Clairaudience and Clairvoyance gave you the ability to move the "point of origin" of your hearing or your seeing to any spot within the AoE (where the AoE was centered around your body). And from that point you would hear or see as 'normal', like if you actually were standing there. From the new location you could pick up conversation within a few meters but you could also hear loud sounds from hundreds of meters away (just as if you were standing at this new location). From this new location you would get line of sight and you could read small print text within a meter or so but also see large things from hundreds of meters away (just as if you were actually standing at this location).


In this edition it seem as if Clairaudience is used to move the "point of origin" of your hearing within the spells area of effect (magician's magic + net hits where the subject is in the middle). So far so good. But unlike the previous edition where you just set the "location" of this "point of origin" you now also have a "size" ('bubble' with a 2m radius) of the "spot" that limits how big area you can hear distant sounds within. That you no longer may hear anything outside of this 'bubble'

Then we come to Clairvoyance it seem as if most of the text is reused from Clairaudience. Again the spell seem to have a "size" ('bubble' with a 2m radius) of a "spot" which seem to limits how far you can see. That you no longer seem to have "line of sight" from this new spot, that you in this edition instead can only see things within this 'bubble'.

Interesting.

[ismodai]

It's a kind of buff spell: Touch the target, and give them (yourself if you're the target) the ability to use the Detection.

Detection spells are typically cast on a subject
that may be the caster (Range: Touch); the sensory
enhancement often occurs in an area separate from
the subject. Unlike many spells that require line of
sight to the target, the area of sensory expansion
can be separated from the subject by walls or barriers.
The range for this area is the (Magic rating of
the caster + Spellcasting test net hits) meters.

Mage Frostburn recently picked up Clairvoyance, and gives it a go. She touches Rigger Emu and casts Clairvoyance on Emu to use.

Frostburn amped the spell twice area-wise, turning it from a 2m-radius into a 6m radius and raising the Drain from 3 to 5. Frostburn has 9 Spellcasting and 6 Magic, and scores 5 hits. This means the max reach of Clairvoyance can be 6 (Frostburn's Magic) + 5 (Frostburn's hits) meters away from Emu. So Emu can move a Clairvoyance area of 6m radius (so 12m diameters) around with her mind, perceiving in said area instead of with her own senses, and max 11m away from her.

Emu is currently located in an office, there's a corridor next to that, and on the other side is the Security Room. She now uses a Minor Action to Shift the Clairvoyance from around her to into the Security Room, checking on how many guards there are, what kind of gear they are wearing and how alert they are. The area of the spell is bigger than the security room, so she also notices the guard in the corridor that's sneaking a smoke around what appears to be a broken smoke detector.

One disclaimer: I assume the max range applies to the entire area, not just the center. It might be intended that you can reach further, that if the area is centered at max distance, you can perceive further than the max distance. I consider that unlikely but no guarantees.

so let´s say I´m a mage that wants to see inside a building , I can stand at the door of said building, cast clairvoyance on myself and then move the point inside the building?

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a kind of buff spell: Touch the target, and give them (yourself if you're the target) the ability to use the Detection.

Detection spells are typically cast on a subject
that may be the caster (Range: Touch); the sensory
enhancement often occurs in an area separate from
the subject. Unlike many spells that require line of
sight to the target, the area of sensory expansion
can be separated from the subject by walls or barriers.
The range for this area is the (Magic rating of
the caster + Spellcasting test net hits) meters.

Mage Frostburn recently picked up Clairvoyance, and gives it a go. She touches Rigger Emu and casts Clairvoyance on Emu to use.

Frostburn amped the spell twice area-wise, turning it from a 2m-radius into a 6m radius and raising the Drain from 3 to 5. Frostburn has 9 Spellcasting and 6 Magic, and scores 5 hits. This means the max reach of Clairvoyance can be 6 (Frostburn's Magic) + 5 (Frostburn's hits) meters away from Emu. So Emu can move a Clairvoyance area of 6m radius (so 12m diameters) around with her mind, perceiving in said area instead of with her own senses, and max 11m away from her.

Emu is currently located in an office, there's a corridor next to that, and on the other side is the Security Room. She now uses a Minor Action to Shift the Clairvoyance from around her to into the Security Room, checking on how many guards there are, what kind of gear they are wearing and how alert they are. The area of the spell is bigger than the security room, so she also notices the guard in the corridor that's sneaking a smoke around what appears to be a broken smoke detector.

One disclaimer: I assume the max range applies to the entire area, not just the center. It might be intended that you can reach further, that if the area is centered at max distance, you can perceive further than the max distance. I consider that unlikely but no guarantees.

One of the many changes they made where the spell become not worth the action to cast. Much less, the karma to learn it etc. Quite a few spells in 6e got broken in that direction. I guess it makes character creation easy, only take these spells from like half the list for thematic character reasons because they are so niche they are almost worthless.  All the stuff that makes a mage broken though, that's mostly intact.

[markelphoenix]

It's a kind of buff spell: Touch the target, and give them (yourself if you're the target) the ability to use the Detection.

Detection spells are typically cast on a subject
that may be the caster (Range: Touch); the sensory
enhancement often occurs in an area separate from
the subject. Unlike many spells that require line of
sight to the target, the area of sensory expansion
can be separated from the subject by walls or barriers.
The range for this area is the (Magic rating of
the caster + Spellcasting test net hits) meters.

Mage Frostburn recently picked up Clairvoyance, and gives it a go. She touches Rigger Emu and casts Clairvoyance on Emu to use.

Frostburn amped the spell twice area-wise, turning it from a 2m-radius into a 6m radius and raising the Drain from 3 to 5. Frostburn has 9 Spellcasting and 6 Magic, and scores 5 hits. This means the max reach of Clairvoyance can be 6 (Frostburn's Magic) + 5 (Frostburn's hits) meters away from Emu. So Emu can move a Clairvoyance area of 6m radius (so 12m diameters) around with her mind, perceiving in said area instead of with her own senses, and max 11m away from her.

Emu is currently located in an office, there's a corridor next to that, and on the other side is the Security Room. She now uses a Minor Action to Shift the Clairvoyance from around her to into the Security Room, checking on how many guards there are, what kind of gear they are wearing and how alert they are. The area of the spell is bigger than the security room, so she also notices the guard in the corridor that's sneaking a smoke around what appears to be a broken smoke detector.

One disclaimer: I assume the max range applies to the entire area, not just the center. It might be intended that you can reach further, that if the area is centered at max distance, you can perceive further than the max distance. I consider that unlikely but no guarantees.

One of the many changes they made where the spell become not worth the action to cast. Much less, the karma to learn it etc. Quite a few spells in 6e got broken in that direction. I guess it makes character creation easy, only take these spells from like half the list for thematic character reasons because they are so niche they are almost worthless.  All the stuff that makes a mage broken though, that's mostly intact.

Help clear my confusion. From my understanding, mage buffs target. Target can then scout ahead undetected by magical means up to the radius of the spell, and from the point the bufee places the center of the spell within that radius, they can see/hear (depending on spell) a certain distance based upon degree of success (number hits) and magic of caster.

How would the ability to scout around corners, at a distance, not be helpful? Potentially scouting entire rooms as well? What am I not seeing here?

[Michael Chandra]

Detection spells had their ranges nerfed, and we currently don't have extended range Detection spells. So from the old 'I can do this from a quarter mile away' perspective it's a severe nerf. The question whether that makes it a waste of karma is up to the individual.

I do believe the spell could be detected if someone is astrally observing, since it's a small astral aura moving about, but it's far more subtle than an astral projecting mage and not vulnerable to astral attacks: worst case you trigger an alarm, instead of having three astral entities tear you apart.

[Xenon]

...up to the radius of the spell, and from the point the bufee places the center of the spell within that radius, they can see/hear (depending on spell) a certain distance based upon degree of success (number hits) and magic of caster....

Small correction; I think the intent is that the radius around the subject where the location of the 'bubble', or the 'spot' as they call it, can be placed is limited by the detection AoE (which is equal to the casting magicians Magic + the casting magicians net hits, rather than the base radius of 2 meters of AoE spells), and that the base radius of the 'bubble' you can actually hear or see within is 2 meters (but can be increased with the Increase Area spell adjustment, rather than being based upon magic + net hits as you wrote). Also that the whole 'bubble' (not the radius around the subject where the location of the 'bubble' can be placed) may be moved at any time with the Shift Area minor action adjustment.

How would the ability to scout around corners, at a distance, not be helpful? Potentially scouting entire rooms as well? What am I not seeing here?

I think they are comparing it to previous editions where you could move the point of origin of your 'eyes' some 200-300 meters away from your body and from there have regular line of sight to let you see 'distant' things for real - to this edition where you instead replace your regular line of sight vision (that can potentially see everything near your body up to perhaps several hundred meters away) with a limited 2 meter radius 'bubble' that severely limit your situational awareness and that may only be moved up to perhaps 10 meters away from your body.

Will there be situations where it might still be considered useful? Sure.
Is it 'as useful' as it used to be? Hell no :-)

In many cases you can probably use an endoscope (or mage sight goggles, or a periscope, or a micro drone) instead.

...do believe the spell could be detected if someone is astrally observing, since it's a small astral aura moving about, but it's far more subtle than an astral projecting mage and not vulnerable to astral attacks: worst case you trigger an alarm, instead of having three astral entities tear you apart.

Don't active magic (such as the 'bubble' with a 4 meter diameter you are moving around) even have an actual tangible astral 'form' on the astral plane (similar to a projecting magician), not just an intangible 'aura' (similar to that of a mundane object). If so, it will not only be immediately obvious on the astral plane it can also be 'attacked' on the astral plane (via dispelling and possible also via astral intersection).

Your first and best defense when it comes to noticing magic is other Awakened people. The spell that is hidden in the physical world tends to light up the astral like an oil lantern, or a commlink on its brightest setting, or whatever other light source you’d like to imagine. A teammate who can see the astral is a considerable advantage in the sensing magic department.

...but yes, a wholly astral entity can't use it to directly attack the subject of the detection spell. So in that sense it will for sure be more 'safe' than opening up the mind to attacks from the astral plane by using astral projection.


I wonder if the intent for this edition is that you would have to 'press through' astral barriers (such as a Ward) in order to move the Clairaudience or the Clairvoyance 'bubble' inside / behind them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a kind of buff spell: Touch the target, and give them (yourself if you're the target) the ability to use the Detection.

Detection spells are typically cast on a subject
that may be the caster (Range: Touch); the sensory
enhancement often occurs in an area separate from
the subject. Unlike many spells that require line of
sight to the target, the area of sensory expansion
can be separated from the subject by walls or barriers.
The range for this area is the (Magic rating of
the caster + Spellcasting test net hits) meters.

Mage Frostburn recently picked up Clairvoyance, and gives it a go. She touches Rigger Emu and casts Clairvoyance on Emu to use.

Frostburn amped the spell twice area-wise, turning it from a 2m-radius into a 6m radius and raising the Drain from 3 to 5. Frostburn has 9 Spellcasting and 6 Magic, and scores 5 hits. This means the max reach of Clairvoyance can be 6 (Frostburn's Magic) + 5 (Frostburn's hits) meters away from Emu. So Emu can move a Clairvoyance area of 6m radius (so 12m diameters) around with her mind, perceiving in said area instead of with her own senses, and max 11m away from her.

Emu is currently located in an office, there's a corridor next to that, and on the other side is the Security Room. She now uses a Minor Action to Shift the Clairvoyance from around her to into the Security Room, checking on how many guards there are, what kind of gear they are wearing and how alert they are. The area of the spell is bigger than the security room, so she also notices the guard in the corridor that's sneaking a smoke around what appears to be a broken smoke detector.

One disclaimer: I assume the max range applies to the entire area, not just the center. It might be intended that you can reach further, that if the area is centered at max distance, you can perceive further than the max distance. I consider that unlikely but no guarantees.

One of the many changes they made where the spell become not worth the action to cast. Much less, the karma to learn it etc. Quite a few spells in 6e got broken in that direction. I guess it makes character creation easy, only take these spells from like half the list for thematic character reasons because they are so niche they are almost worthless.  All the stuff that makes a mage broken though, that's mostly intact.

Help clear my confusion. From my understanding, mage buffs target. Target can then scout ahead undetected by magical means up to the radius of the spell, and from the point the bufee places the center of the spell within that radius, they can see/hear (depending on spell) a certain distance based upon degree of success (number hits) and magic of caster.

How would the ability to scout around corners, at a distance, not be helpful? Potentially scouting entire rooms as well? What am I not seeing here?

You are moving a fairly small bubble of vision or sound.  Like its a aerial view and only sees a 4 meter circle. Can you find  a use for that well sure.  But virtually any other method of seeing something over there is vastly superior and many of them are really cheap. Buy a micro drone, get bet both sound and video that works at line of sight/sound and you can share it with the team. Now why are you spending 6 karma and about as much cash on the formula than the micro drone would cost you?  And lets face it almost every place is going to have cameras somewhere, let your Decker hack it again get a better view+sound maybe some special visions as well and be able to share it with the team.  Before it was almost equal in quality but lacked the ability to share what you are currently seeing with the team so it was only slightly inferior, now its significantly so. And even if you don't think about it on a teamwork side of thing, and the Decker being able to do it a 10 pack of gnat drones costs $800 and they can knock people out. Vs $500 and 6 karma for the spell, so even for mages its better to just buy the drones.   

[Michael Chandra]

A sidenote: Due to the 'let's discuss SR5 instead and argue about whether this is worth it, rather than help the OP understand the rules', OP fled onto Facebook to ask the question there, without such derailing.

[Xenon]

I thought OP already got a perfectly valid and clear response in the very first reply from you....?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah I didn't think there was anything else to discuss on the answer side of things. You put the spell on someone(which can be you) with a touch, they gain the vision/sense.  I always felt the language should be clearer about that, but its been multiple editions with the same or similar language so I guess that's a bit futile.