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5e dnd vs 6e SR. Seeking simplicity and why edge failed,

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Finstersang

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« Reply #105 on: <07-07-20/1833:51> »
No one has ever called me a 6e apologist.  :o

That said 6e could be fixed. I don't think it will ever happen, but it's certainly possible. You would end up re-writing a decent chunk of the core. The whole edge system isn't a horrible idea, it's execution is just bad.  But as Dez points out dramatic resource generation is a good idea and can work very well, FFG, Scion 2, all include very good examples, I wouldn't have picked Saga edition, but whatever. It just happens that 6e failed to build and integrate it, and most of the new stuff is really just making the problem worse.

Yeah, I guess that makes you (among others, including myself  ;)) the closest to an "apologist" on that matter. Because I too think that the whole premise of the Edge System can theoretically be fixed or at least could have worked out if executed right:

What could have worked: A small, but meaningfull set of easy-to-remember Edge Boosts, maybe along with some non-essential(!) Special Moves.
What we got: Almost every tactical combat choice, from Called Shots to Supressing Fire gets turned into an overprized Edge Action, most of of which are obvious mechanical traps.

What could have worked: Clear guidelines on what kind of bonuses/penalties certain perks or circumstances may grant, leading to a lean and clean system that doesn´t get more and more warped and bloated with every new supplement.
What we got: To this day, there are: Effects that grant Edge to either side, Effects that grant Edge to either side but for this test only, Effects that deny Edge gain to either side, Effects that deny Edge use to either side, Effects that deny Edge use and Edge gain to either side, Effects that make Edge-boosts cheaper, Effects that limit the amount of Edge you can earn or use in a certain timeframe, Effects that add to or subtract from AR or DR, the good old dice pool bonus/penalty and lots of miscellaneous stuff like Wild Dice, Glitch shenanigans or adding/subtracting Minor Actions. Often, it´s bundles of multiple effects, all of which are applied without any rhyme or reason, leading to some almost surreally bad interactions. Like imaging scopes and the cover mechanic  :P

What could have worked: Literally anything else than straight up limiting the amount of Edge that can be earned per combat turn. Including no limitations at all.
What we got: 2 Edge per round and a haphazard attempt to fix this drek with Tacnets instead of just admitting that it´s a bad idea and updating the CRB.

What could have worked: Armor that just helps against damage? :o TBvfH, I don´t even think that the AR/DR system would have been such a big problem if it weren´t for all the other stupid shit regarding Edge....
What we got: A way too underdeveloped AR/DR system that grants a max. of 1 Edge to either side IF none of the other braindead Edge Limitations apply. For further reference, see my current signature...
« Last Edit: <07-07-20/1842:07> by Finstersang »

Leith

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« Reply #106 on: <07-08-20/0309:51> »
What could have worked: A small, but meaningfull set of easy-to-remember Edge Boosts, maybe along with some non-essential(!) Special Moves.
What we got: Almost every tactical combat choice, from Called Shots to Supressing Fire gets turned into an overprized Edge Action, most of of which are obvious mechanical traps.

I find you mainly remember the boosts that play with the dicepools, ya know rerolls and stuff. The rest you can look up if you want, but they are circumstantial. It creates a nice web of complexity. As for traps, I assume people mean stuff like Blinding Strike, which again I see as circumstantial. The circumstances being rather narrow for having a 4-edge action, which is my personal problem with it.

What could have worked: Clear guidelines on what kind of bonuses/penalties certain perks or circumstances may grant, leading to a lean and clean system that doesn´t get more and more warped and bloated with every new supplement.
What we got: To this day, there are: Effects that grant Edge to either side, Effects that grant Edge to either side but for this test only, Effects that deny Edge gain to either side, Effects that deny Edge use to either side, Effects that deny Edge use and Edge gain to either side, Effects that make Edge-boosts cheaper, Effects that limit the amount of Edge you can earn or use in a certain timeframe, Effects that add to or subtract from AR or DR, the good old dice pool bonus/penalty and lots of miscellaneous stuff like Wild Dice, Glitch shenanigans or adding/subtracting Minor Actions. Often, it´s bundles of multiple effects, all of which are applied without any rhyme or reason, leading to some almost surreally bad interactions. Like imaging scopes and the cover mechanic  :P

Guidlines is what we got, lean and clean is what we lack. But that's been true for several editions as far as I'm concerned.

What could have worked: Literally anything else than straight up limiting the amount of Edge that can be earned per combat turn. Including no limitations at all.
What we got: 2 Edge per round and a haphazard attempt to fix this drek with Tacnets instead of just admitting that it´s a bad idea and updating the CRB.

So on one hand this is frustrating because if I do 6 attacks in round (anticipate) and each qualufies for 1 edge gained (or even 2 or 3) I only get 2 for the round. And what if I'm then attacked multiple times? Earlier I compared this to D&D advantage and how cannot stack advantage. It's not a perfect 1-1 comparison though, you would get advantage on all 6 attacks for example. But you can't bank advantage. Despite people's insistence on valuing edge based on what you can do with 1 point (or is it the 3 point for 1 hit?) edge is more valuable in large numbers regardless of what boost you use it on (rerolling 4 of your enemies hits on a single roll for example is better than doing 1 four times). Edge really just reprisents things going your way. Is that a good mechanic? Taste is pretty important here, I will say it would not be my first choice but I don't hate it.

The other concern is of more interest I think because the 2 edge limit incentivizes players to build to that limit and no further. There is no point in wearing cool armor if you get 2 edge from somewhere else. Just slap on enough that your foes don't get any and call it a day. I don't have any dissenting perspective here except to say, yeh, do that. The game is telling you you don't need DR beyond a certain point, so don't bother. But what is that point...?

What could have worked: Armor that just helps against damage? :o TBvfH, I don´t even think that the AR/DR system would have been such a big problem if it weren´t for all the other stupid shit regarding Edge....
What we got: A way too underdeveloped AR/DR system that grants a max. of 1 Edge to either side IF none of the other braindead Edge Limitations apply. For further reference, see my current signature...

AC doesn't reduce damage. Used by the most recognizable RPG in the world. Just sayin.

Anyway, even if everything above were to your liking, no AR/DR would be just as unpredictable and just as often a non-effect as it is now.

Dezmont is right that optimizing these stats is nigh impossible. The game tells you not to use too much armor but not how much is too much.

It has been said that dicepools are different because you know what the stats of a PR3 grunt are. Which grunt is that? An Ancients Racer (FS 145), or a Gunner (FS 145), or maybe a Lone Star Veteran (FS 136) or the humble Patrolman (CRB 206)? These guys have very different dicepools for attack and defense. They also have very different gear. There is little to no consistency, and those numbers can change based on metatype and grunt group rules. SR doesn't have a CR system. Optimizing means you have to make some assumptions, hopefully not arbitrary ones. Dicepools have a more limited range than AR/DR but that doesn't mean your not making assumptions about opposition. Because the only hard data you have is pretty eclectic (or in the case of AR/DR vast).

penllawen

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« Reply #107 on: <07-08-20/1002:14> »
Yeah, I guess that makes you (among others, including myself  ;)) the closest to an "apologist" on that matter. Because I too think that the whole premise of the Edge System can theoretically be fixed or at least could have worked out if executed right:p
Oh, I'm in this camp too. I don't mind the idea of metacurrencies in RPGs and was quite excited by the early previews of 6e as I felt the idea held promise. I acknowledge that it can feel a little strange juxtaposed to the quite closely modelled simulationist approach of Shadowrun - it risks feeling like you have two intermeshed systems running at different levels of abstraction. But I don't think that's unsolvable, although I don't think 6e comes close to solving it either.

I don't mind the concept of moving some modifier calculations into a pre-compute-at-chargen kind of deal either (ie AR and DR), as opposed to a per-action calculation. Again, though, as implemented in 6e I find it sits uneasily alongside the more detailed level of most of the rest of the system, but perhaps there was a design that could make it work.

Although I think the AR/DR design is tougher to navigate than Edge. 1e-5e gave players a list of situational modifiers, and then ways to cancel those modifiers out if they were smart enough to foresee the situation and pick the matching gear or abilities - whether it was bringing low-light goggles to a nighttime gun-fight or APDS ammo for the armoured goons. The core list of modifiers isn't too bad, but once you start ladling on the anti-modifiers it gets pretty complicated, partly because there's a lot of them but also because they're scattered around multiple places in multiple books.

In collapsing that to AR/DR and the GM fiat call of "you earn 1 Edge for blah", 6e reduces players' ability to demonstrate skilful foresight; +2 AR is +2 AR, regardless of where it came from. The game is simpler, but it has lost a dimension that a lot of people valued. I don't know how you can square that circle.
« Last Edit: <07-08-20/1004:25> by penllawen »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #108 on: <07-08-20/1012:52> »
...So on one hand this is frustrating because if I do 6 attacks in round (anticipate) and each qualufies for 1 edge gained (or even 2 or 3) I only get 2 for the round. And what if I'm then attacked multiple times? Earlier I compared this to D&D advantage and how cannot stack advantage...

This is an arcane distinction, and may raise a point to dislike that you hadn't even realized you disliked, but:

You're not doing 6 attacks in one round unless you somehow have 6 major actions.  If you use Anticipate, you're necessarily using the Multiple Attacks minor action and THAT is allowing you to spread ONE attack across multiple targets.  So if you Anticipate on 6 targets, it's still one attack and you need only compare AR to DR on one target (you use the highest DR) and you can only gain edge from AR once, despite having 6 targets.

So, yes, this means the DR of the other 5 targets WAS actually meaningless. (One of the niche times where DR can be meaningless)
OTOH: Being able to "hide behind" someone else's DR actually provides a bit of a MMORPG tanking mechanic without trying to implement a "taunt" that forces an opponent to attack you.
« Last Edit: <07-08-20/1014:33> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #109 on: <07-08-20/1016:27> »
That means if I do Anticipate against some goons and maybe also their boss, the goons get tougher depending on whether or not I attack the boss too? You don’t think that’s a little bit weird?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #110 on: <07-08-20/1025:55> »
That means if I do Anticipate against some goons and maybe also their boss, the goons get tougher depending on whether or not I attack the boss too? You don’t think that’s a little bit weird?

Well, they're not getting any tougher so the question is a non sequitur.  Even if you would have gained Edge vs a mook's DR, it's not like you could have gained 6 Edge under any circumstances anyway.

So, no.  Actually I don't think it's weird.  If you're shooting at the boss (presumably the guy with a higher DR) and his mooks, "clearly" your primary focus is on the boss anyway.  Hitting any mooks collaterally is just frosting on the cake.  Since you're being hard capped at 2 edge anyway, it actually makes perfect sense this way.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #111 on: <07-08-20/1041:40> »
So, no.  Actually I don't think it's weird.  If you're shooting at the boss (presumably the guy with a higher DR) and his mooks, "clearly" your primary focus is on the boss anyway.  Hitting any mooks collaterally is just frosting on the cake.  Since you're being hard capped at 2 edge anyway, it actually makes perfect sense this way.
Maybe your focus is downing the mooks so you can concentrate on the boss next turn, and any damage you can to the boss on the way is the icing. Who can tell?

Anyway, suppose this flips you from earning Edge (vs the goons) to conceding Edge (vs the boss.) You've previously argued that's a big deal, right? That it's worth optimising AR&DR because conceding Edge is bad. But now you think it doesn't matter?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #112 on: <07-08-20/1051:31> »
So, no.  Actually I don't think it's weird.  If you're shooting at the boss (presumably the guy with a higher DR) and his mooks, "clearly" your primary focus is on the boss anyway.  Hitting any mooks collaterally is just frosting on the cake.  Since you're being hard capped at 2 edge anyway, it actually makes perfect sense this way.
Maybe your focus is downing the mooks so you can concentrate on the boss next turn, and any damage you can to the boss on the way is the icing. Who can tell?

Anyway, suppose this flips you from earning Edge (vs the goons) to conceding Edge (vs the boss.) You've previously argued that's a big deal, right? That it's worth optimising AR&DR because conceding Edge is bad. But now you think it doesn't matter?

I can't think of a plausible scenario where someone optimizing for AR is losing edge to DR.

But, in such a hypothetical situation, then you're doing something decidedly non-optimal in trying to shoot the so-much-easier-to-kill mooks while "focusing" on that insane DR tank.  Just shoot the mooks first, THEN go for the boss.  Since you're optimizing and all.  In such a case it sounds like you want to bank up some Edge anyway, so may as well milk the mooks for the Edge before turning on their boss.

As for "it doesn't matter that you only compare AR to DR once per attack"?  Yes.  So long as there's an edge gain cap in place, it truly literally doesn't matter that you're not gaining edge on mopping up a horde of low DR mooks.  Even if you did compare AR to DR each time, you're still not getting that edge.  So why waste that time.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #113 on: <07-08-20/1057:01> »
I can't think of a plausible scenario where someone optimizing for AR is losing edge to DR.

Only because of the busted ass scope plus aim. DR stacks significantly higher otherwise.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #114 on: <07-08-20/1118:32> »
I can't think of a plausible scenario where someone optimizing for AR is losing edge to DR.

Only because of the busted ass scope plus aim. DR stacks significantly higher otherwise.

Even without a scope.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say a scope is probably pointless when you're already AR twinking.

DRs are going to cap out around 19 or so.  Yeah it's possible for a DR optimized PC to push beyond that, but NPCs basically won't be.  All you need to prevent 19 DR from gaining edge on you is AR16.   You can hit that lots of ways.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #115 on: <07-08-20/1140:33> »
So, yes, this means the DR of the other 5 targets WAS actually meaningless. (One of the niche times where DR can be meaningless)

So long as there's an edge gain cap in place, it truly literally doesn't matter that you're not gaining edge on mopping up a horde of low DR mooks.  Even if you did compare AR to DR each time, you're still not getting that edge.  So why waste that time.

Seems to me like mopping up a horde of mooks isn't a "niche time", but actually a pretty common scenario where DR is meaningless.

Lormyr

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« Reply #116 on: <07-08-20/1141:14> »
Ok, specifically in the realm of PC vs. standard NPC, I agree. If memory serves not even the PR 10 guys had a DR over 11, which is silly, but most of those templates are ludicrous to begin with in terms of lazy (just slapping a ton of karma on them) and poorly (bad mechanic selections) designed.

"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Marcus

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« Reply #117 on: <07-08-20/1805:46> »
So, yes, this means the DR of the other 5 targets WAS actually meaningless. (One of the niche times where DR can be meaningless)
OTOH: Being able to "hide behind" someone else's DR actually provides a bit of a MMORPG tanking mechanic without trying to implement a "taunt" that forces an opponent to attack you.

I think your should need to check the definition of Niche SSDR. A more accurate assessment goes yet another example of the over whelming common circumstance where AR/DR do nothing.

The phrase DR tank is frankly ludicrously amusing concept. 

DR has Nothing in Common with AC. Zero. Zilch. Nada. DR will never prevent any damage, ever. In the extremely unlikely even that your GM is kind enough to let you gain a point of edge and then not cancel your spending of it that edge might, possibly, prevent damage, but it still won't be the DR doing it.  If DR did prevent damage then it would actually be useful and there would be no AR/DR problem.

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dezmont

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« Reply #118 on: <07-09-20/0517:13> »
The phrase DR tank is frankly ludicrously amusing concept. 

Yeah doing more math on it, it really is kinda a hoot. The more I look into it the more bad of an idea it is to do anything but the bare minimum (I can't stress enough I do not endorse the 'swimsuit runner' plan, armored jackets do make a meaningful difference!) is a bad idea. Just get as good a initiative upgrade you can and cheese out full defense, which as a bonus works surprisingly well even on extremely high PR goons, while DR maximization basically stops working at all really early. It is comical how bad an investment DR is for not taking damage compared to just boosting athletics or giving yourself extra minor actions so you can always full defense.


DR has Nothing in Common with AC. Zero. Zilch. Nada. DR will never prevent any damage, ever. In the extremely unlikely even that your GM is kind enough to let you gain a point of edge and then not cancel your spending of it that edge might, possibly, prevent damage, but it still won't be the DR doing it.  If DR did prevent damage then it would actually be useful and there would be no AR/DR problem.

That is a similarity to AC, in that it helps reduce incoming hit rate.

It just is AC is a meaningful 5% reduction in hit rate, and thus incoming damage on you, for each point of it, while AR and DR takes the non-intuitive sliding scale aspect of opposed pool rolls (Which have many advantages, but a super clear exact understandings of your probabilities for each point of investment without knowing the context of the roll isn't one of them) but turns it up to 11 by making it not even resemble a steady drop in expected gains but instead fly about all over the place in value.

AC I know is a 5% reduction in hit rate. Period. Boom. Done. 5% reduced expected average incoming damage, we are all square h- well actually the fact that 5% of damage is going to be crits changes that and variable crit thresholds and damage multipliers changes that but its easily 'good enough.'

I know a defense dice is anywhere from like 2% to 12% lower a hit rate, with the number trending lower the more soak dice I have. I know that (At least in 5e) that due to how the skill dice scale, I can expect the average professional fighter to roll around 8 dice with more elite enemies using more and less elite enemies using less, and with enemies getting more unpredictable in behavior and capabilities as they go up. That is still a lot of uncertainty, but it is 'predictable' uncertainty. I don't know how I stack up to a given random prime runner but, knowing about what prime runners I might expect to face lets me have a good aproximation, and even if I am 'wrong' my dice investments still have value.

AR and DR is the worst kind of unpredictability because its maximum uncertainty: You don't have real relationships between AR and DR and pools on NPCs, AR and damage, a concrete way to evaluate DR or AR on NPCs based on grunt rating (it does generally go up but it gets really unpredictable REALLY fast), and the outcome of investments requires you to make the 'perfect' chocie to matter, so guessing wrong either means ALL your investments were worthless, or whatever 'extra' investments were worthless.

The payoff for 'correctly' managing defense and soak is you don't take damage, which is critical in SR as fights tend to be about objectives rather than survival or grinder combat in 5e, so taking a chunk of damage significantly hurts your odds (As it has serious consequences and tends to either floor you or put you close due to how soak worked). With edge, you can guarentee 0 DV attacks which is critical when getting proned by a big hit (Even if you aren't KO'd) means you can't do something critical like stop a runner or prevent someone from hitting the shutter close button on the building your in or whatever.

In SR6, correctly managing AR and DR gives you or denies the enemy one edge, which is significantly weaker than in SR5. Your really pushing the results by about 2 dice, which can matter but it doesn't matter a lot, it will almost never make or break a fight when SR6 fights are also longer which makes even slight combat advantages more valuable and you don't need to push your advantage as high as you do in SR5, or worse, SR4, where fights are over almost instantly.

So the system is less understandable and coherent, says less about the world because it doesn't track to anything, and is lower stakes in terms of the payoff but higher stakes in the sense that even slight mistakes significantly reduce the meager reward of it at LEAST. I know you can't linearlly compare systems like this directly but I think its fair to say that AR/DR is 'worse' than soak in almost every way save for exactly one thing: Attacks that hit almost always deal damage but don't one hit down, allowing SR to emulate a dungeon crawl where you grind resources down which... I don't think is what SR should be trying to be, its a heist game at its heart, but eh, different strokes, I wouldn't kick a spinoff edition focused more on capturing the crowd brought in by SRR looking for more grid based cyberpunk D&D if it came up with cool systems and encouraged awesome fight designs like SRR (sometimes) did and took it as an excuse to re-balance all the roles along a combat axis. Call it Shadowrun: Tacitcal Ops or something. Heck, I basically tried to do a mega-paired down more grid focused SR system for a 'Urban Brawl' pseudo-boardgame hack. SR in part biases towards heisting because it works so well as theater of the mind, so a more fighty resource management mercenary focused variant wouldn't be unwelcome.

The issue is that plenty of games arrive at this equilibrium without almost completely gutting the combat mechanics of the system and looping almost everything into either being a AR/DR modification, or a new way to spend edge that isn't worth it because now you actually DO need to race to do damage and don't have time for interesting thematic combat choices.
« Last Edit: <07-09-20/0523:05> by dezmont »

Marcus

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« Reply #119 on: <07-09-20/1547:16> »
There is no parallel Dez, as long as 6e edge has negation you can't set a base value to edge. B/C You just can't predict what 1 edge point will translate too; the value of 1 edge is just too variable (1/3 of another success given a failure, 2/3 of -1 for an opponent, increased the cost of their edge use). Further with AR/DR there are 2-3 possible points of failure before even reaching the 4 swing mechanic. Of those points of failure the 2 edge limit is extremely likely to occur, Ironically it making building AR/DR actually self defeating, as if you actually get a point you greatly reduce (50%) further chance of getting another point from it. AC is nothing like that. DnD hit curve works well, the math is solid. 6e SR math is a mess and its all over the place.

« Last Edit: <07-09-20/1550:40> by Marcus »
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