[Lormyr]

Exactly.

But also:

If you build to a certain standard, you shouldn't be expecting to face challenges built for a lower standard.  You don't see level 15s fighting 4 hit point goblins in That Other Game (tm), so neither should you expect gutter punk encounters if you're throwing 20+ dice.  Sure, cyber ninja vampires filling in for gutter punks in gutter punk-appropriate encounters is bad GMing, but if cyber ninja vampires are what you're powerful enough to fight then that's what you should be getting

My philosophy is a little different.

If I am just running/playing a murder hobo game, that doesn't focus much on role-play or character development much if at all, then I am down with that.

But most of my core group's games are half murder hobo and character optimization, and half role-play and character development. When I am running or playing a more serious minded campaign like that, I want appropriate world consistency to be part of it. A big part of world consistency for me is NPC power levels. I feel like a character with 300+ karma, or magic rating over 8, or nothing but alphaware and deltaware should be quite uncommon. You'd be talking about the elite corp forces and shit. If you encounter them, or higher, every time you do a run then it starts to feel like exceptional people are endless.

When I am running those games I save those tough fights for critical moments. When the party engages most fights, I instead use enough lower key enemies as is necessary to make them sweat a little, or I let them have a cake walk in terms of their fight. I instead threaten them by threatening what they care about. Sure, your 800 karma mage is so strong that in order to challenge it I have to whip up what amounts to some bullshit. . .but how tough is your grand daughter pal? How well protected is that new humanitarian enterprise's office building? How secure is your personal reputation vs. being dragged through the mud? Stuff like that. It makes the game more engaging while maintaining an appropriate sense that the exceptional are equally rare.

Mind you none of that really matters until several hundred karma in.

[Hobbes]

Powerful PCs are still helpless on a setting scale.  They can certainly handle something directly that is right in front of them.  But the dystopian nature of the setting means PCs are (generally) not making lasting or meaningful changes without a lot of plot devices/story arcs from a willing GM. 

You can handle little Timmy's gang problem by eliminating the gang.  But next week another gang has rolled in.

Sure you can steal the mcguffin from Giant Evil Corp A, but you're just giving it to Giant Evil Corp B.  Nothing really changes.

I have no issue with PCs being powerful and able to easily handle discrete, specific challenges that are right their in front of them. 

GMs that feel the need to escalate combat dice pools just haven't learn to really crush a player's soul you need to show them the futility of their choices  :  )

Honestly the "Murdo-Hobo" play style is fairly easy to justify in Shadowrun.  PC "I can't change the world, but I can take out this jerk."  Fatalistic / Nihilistic PCs are part of the whole cyber psychosis trope anyway.   

[Lormyr]

I agree with all that. Additionally, no matter how personally powerful a PC gets, they will likely never have the sheer resources to fully compete with a corp outside of select murder.

[Grawwr]

Yea, plus also the corps can escalate forever. Even if their individual soldiers arent as powerful as the runners, they can pull out all sorts of "unfair" tricks. For instance, you have a runner team firing missiles and throwing grenades everywhere and causing a bunch of property damage that is hurting their bottom line?

Forget HTR team, thats when they escalate and bring in the heavy artillery in the form of attack helicopters, drone missiles, spirit squads and the like. Stuff that a simple runner team cant really deal with. If you are costing the corps more in damage than it would cost them to deploy such expensive assets (and pay the legal fees required to do so), then the corps are just gonna bring the hammer down on your head.

The level of response to the runner's actions should be proportional to how much economic damage they are doing (or will do) to the corp (remember, stealing a McGuffin might classify as a LOT of economic damage). Similarly, the level of security at a site is proportional to the economic value of the site.

The best way to deal with runners with high dice pools is just to send them on more challenging missions. Fixers aint gonna waste their time sending their star teams on simple milk runs when they can earn so much more by giving them higher paying jobs (and getting a small cut)

[Hobbes]

Back on Topic.  Best Melee is now Cyclops.  Get two actions, make two attacks, get two Edge.  Every time.  So replace "Elf" with "Cyclops" and carry on with one less Agility, and five less Karma, but gain Edge for any test made at Close Range. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Back on Topic.  Best Melee is now Cyclops.  Get two actions, make two attacks, get two Edge.  Every time.  So replace "Elf" with "Cyclops" and carry on with one less Agility, and five less Karma, but gain Edge for any test made at Close Range.

Depends on which leg of the Edge triad that comes from.  Sounds like the "Gear, Augmentations, and etc" leg to me.  It's nice, sure... especially since it's relatively hard to find gear that gives edge for close combat.  But if you have huge strength, you're likely getting edge from AR so you're already capping out on 2 per round with that 1 attack.  May as well save the 4 minors for not dying.

[Hobbes]

Automatically generating Edge at any close range test lets you dump Str if you're Unarmed.  And I don't understand not attacking when you could attack.  If you're a melee combat character and opponents are in Melee range, you attack.  If they're not in Melee range, you move closer and shoot at them with your crossbow if you don't close the gap.

But I'm a simple man, with simple needs.  Unaware of complex nuances like "dodge" or "parry".   

[markelphoenix]

Automatically generating Edge at any close range test lets you dump Str if you're Unarmed.  And I don't understand not attacking when you could attack.  If you're a melee combat character and opponents are in Melee range, you attack.  If they're not in Melee range, you move closer and shoot at them with your crossbow if you don't close the gap.

But I'm a simple man, with simple needs.  Unaware of complex nuances like "dodge" or "parry".   

I mean, if you're a super high DV melee fighter, if you can take out 2 threats and survive anything that comes from the remaining targets, assuming your team mates don't geek them for you, can see the strategy here :-p

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, since the whole idea revolves around close range and falls apart if the opposition just spreads out...

I'd rather save some potentially life-saving minor actions in my back pocket

Edit: Oh, and lulz.  I'm not sure I'd want to play a one-eyed anything in this edition.  How easy is it to get an eye put out via the glitch table?

[markelphoenix]

Well, since the whole idea revolves around close range and falls apart if the opposition just spreads out...

I'd rather save some potentially life-saving minor actions in my back pocket

Edit: Oh, and lulz.  I'm not sure I'd want to play a one-eyed anything in this edition.  How easy is it to get an eye put out via the glitch table?

The importance of players getting clarity from GM if they'll be using that horrendous glitch table...like, holy cow...

[Hobbes]

Well, since the whole idea revolves around close range and falls apart if the opposition just spreads out...

I'd rather save some potentially life-saving minor actions in my back pocket

Edit: Oh, and lulz.  I'm not sure I'd want to play a one-eyed anything in this edition.  How easy is it to get an eye put out via the glitch table?

The problem with a universal movement rate is that it's just trading actions.  Opponent spends a minor action move?  You spend a Minor action move.  Opponent spends a Major Action move, you spend a Major action move.

And every action the opposition spends on Move Actions, is an Action they aren't shooting you or your team.  If all you accomplish is to make the other team spend 1/4 to 1/2 their potential attack actions on move actions while the rest of your team plinks away, that's probably a team win.  And one of the more efficient ways to Tank that is available in SR. 

"Eeeeek!!! Run away!  Run away!"  is a splendid result for a lot of Shadowrun tactical situations, from a PC perspective.  You don't get XPees for fighting the monsters here.