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Mental Adepts?

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Crimsondude

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« Reply #15 on: <03-17-11/1810:05> »
I'll be honest. I do not remember who you might be referring to that its thought dead. Probably because I am in the comic book death mindset: no body, no death. Body? Maybe they're dead.

I cannot say more about hacker or other adepts, but everything is in the toy box and ... And.

Chrona

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« Reply #16 on: <03-17-11/1813:51> »
Technomancers are so not Hacker Adepts

Catadmin

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« Reply #17 on: <03-17-11/1819:45> »
Technomancers are so not Hacker Adepts

So what do you define a Hacker Adept as?
Brandie Tarvin
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Catadmin

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« Reply #18 on: <03-17-11/1820:47> »
I'll be honest. I do not remember who you might be referring to that its thought dead. Probably because I am in the comic book death mindset: no body, no death. Body? Maybe they're dead.

I cannot say more about hacker or other adepts, but everything is in the toy box and ... And.

You know we're not supposed to talk about Johnny Storm here, 'Dude. That's our best kept secret.

Aside from the whole Superman resurrection thing, that is.
Brandie Tarvin
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Chrona

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« Reply #19 on: <03-17-11/1829:35> »
Technomancers are so not Hacker Adepts

So what do you define a Hacker Adept as?

Adepts with copious amounts of improved skill powers?

Technomancers have always been Matrix Mages to me

Crimsondude

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« Reply #20 on: <03-17-11/1847:06> »
Yeah. That's the thing about hacker adepts is that they have their own benefits, and like anyone/thing else it's a matter of making them work as a character that players want to deal with, emulate, or basically just care about. I would hope that some players eventually do some deep thinking and come up with detailed, intricate ideas and explanations for all the stuff that isn't covered or just not covered in detail. I was just chatting with another writer about material that I have been working on for years. But I'm an obsessive weirdo loser. For most people, it shouldn't take that much work to pull a bunch of run and downtime and background ideas from your average section or sub-chapter, let alone full chapters.

Catadmin

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« Reply #21 on: <03-17-11/1913:10> »
Technomancers are so not Hacker Adepts

So what do you define a Hacker Adept as?

Adepts with copious amounts of improved skill powers?

But what skill powers? The problem I see with having a separate Hacker Adept is that (s)he needs to get access to the Matrix. Only two ways of doing that, if you're not a TM: Cyberware and outer ware.

Adepts have to have the Magic attribute, so if they put 'ware in themselves for their Matrix connections, then they lose both Essence and Magic, kind of a catch-22 with no win. Otherwise, they're running around wearing AR Gloves and goggles / contacts with other external gear to get their Mad Skillz on. And their adept powers would just be either repeating Hacker programs or TM Complex Forms.

I agree TMs are Matrix Mages. No argument there. But IMHO, the potential limitations of a Hacker Adept makes such an archetype worthless. You've got your Hacker with 'ware. You've got your TM with Resonance Streams like Dronomancer or Cyberadept. What's missing?

In order to be relevant, a Hacker Adept would need to be something special, something different. So what would you want in such a character that would make it stand out from the other options?
Brandie Tarvin
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website: http://www.brandietarvin.net
blog: http://brandietarvin.livejournal.net
Twitter: WannaBeWriter06

Now Available - Space Tramps (Flying Pen Press) and Latchkeys Unlatched (on Kindle and Nook)

Charybdis

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« Reply #22 on: <03-17-11/1922:46> »
But what skill powers? The problem I see with having a separate Hacker Adept is that (s)he needs to get access to the Matrix. Only two ways of doing that, if you're not a TM: Cyberware and outer ware.

Adepts have to have the Magic attribute, so if they put 'ware in themselves for their Matrix connections, then they lose both Essence and Magic, kind of a catch-22 with no win. Otherwise, they're running around wearing AR Gloves and goggles / contacts with other external gear to get their Mad Skillz on. And their adept powers would just be either repeating Hacker programs or TM Complex Forms.
Most adepts I've built include a point or two of magic loss for Cyber and Bioware. Smartlinks and Sleep regulator are pretty standard, and there's even a couple of levels of Muscle-Toner available before losing one point.

I can see them implanting a commlink, maybe a cerebral booster etc to make them a bit more competitive. Hell, Even some mages I know have a point or two of Cyber to fix some issues (Eyes for low-light/thermo etc)

As for the skills, there could be some excellent boosts to Computer/Hacking group, and the standard Mobility boosters are good for any hacker that has to physically visit a shadowrun target (building/person)once in a while....
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Chrona

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« Reply #23 on: <03-17-11/1926:52> »
And in the end, all you need is a datajack, wire and commlink w/ programs

CanRay

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« Reply #24 on: <03-17-11/2015:03> »
Adepts are accepted in society.  Technomancers, not so much.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Charybdis

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« Reply #25 on: <03-17-11/2016:37> »
And in the end, all you need is a datajack, wire and commlink w/ programs
True 'dat.
'Too much is never enough'

Current PC: Free Spirit (Norse Shamanic)
'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

Phreak Commandment V:
If Thou Be In School, Strive To Get Thine Self Good Grades, For The Authorities Well Know That Scholars Never Break The Law

Man Who Walks At Night

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« Reply #26 on: <03-17-11/2324:03> »
Most adepts I've built include a point or two of magic loss for Cyber and Bioware. Smartlinks and Sleep regulator are pretty standard, and there's even a couple of levels of Muscle-Toner available before losing one point.

I can see them implanting a commlink, maybe a cerebral booster etc to make them a bit more competitive. Hell, Even some mages I know have a point or two of Cyber to fix some issues (Eyes for low-light/thermo etc)

As for the skills, there could be some excellent boosts to Computer/Hacking group, and the standard Mobility boosters are good for any hacker that has to physically visit a shadowrun target (building/person)once in a while....

Lets face it, the reason you (and others) add cyber/bioware to adepts/mages is a min/max approach to roleplaying, trying to get the most bang for the money. In my shadowrun world this is a rarity, people who are awakened do not squander their essence/magic away, you as a player can calculate the exact effect you getting a few wares has on your character, but if you think as your character, in a world where surgery in itself can cause you to loose magic, do you really think a lot of people would pick this option? Would an awakened person REALLY take the chance? I just don't see it unless its really really really important, and lets face it, a datajack or cybereyes are not a life or death situation, its at best about a little convenience over wearing goggles or using trodes. I just can't see the justification for this from a roleplaying point of view. And from that point of view, I just don't see the benefit of adding a hacker adept - but then again, there is alot of character options I just don't see the justification for adding to the shadowrun universe, its becomming worse than AD&D 3.5 with 3839080398 classes to pick from.
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CanRay

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« Reply #27 on: <03-17-11/2341:12> »
But what about the old skool "Burned Out" Mages?  Where's their love?
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Charybdis

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« Reply #28 on: <03-17-11/2346:57> »
Lets face it, the reason you (and others) add cyber/bioware to adepts/mages is a min/max approach to roleplaying, trying to get the most bang for the money. In my shadowrun world this is a rarity, people who are awakened do not squander their essence/magic away, you as a player can calculate the exact effect you getting a few wares has on your character, but if you think as your character, in a world where surgery in itself can cause you to loose magic, do you really think a lot of people would pick this option? Would an awakened person REALLY take the chance? I just don't see it unless its really really really important, and lets face it, a datajack or cybereyes are not a life or death situation, its at best about a little convenience over wearing goggles or using trodes. I just can't see the justification for this from a roleplaying point of view. And from that point of view, I just don't see the benefit of adding a hacker adept - but then again, there is alot of character options I just don't see the justification for adding to the shadowrun universe, its becomming worse than AD&D 3.5 with 3839080398 classes to pick from.
Whoa... maybe I'm reading too much into the tone here, but it sounds like a chill pill script needs to be administered.

A) It's a game
B) There's every chance a PC's development didn't ALLOW for refusal. If an adept works for Aztech/UCAS/Renraku etc, is he really going to say 'No' when the bosses come by to explain a little upgrade?
C) As for min/maxing, I'll admit this is always a concern. However until the balance shifts back from Bioware towards Magic for what adepts can do, I'll take an R4 Muscle Toner vs 6 points of magic raising my Agilityx4 (@1.5 per point over Racial Limit), thank you very much indeed.
D) Idealistic PC's while great Roleplaying points, have to accept some limitations in that regard. This is why ideals such as Pacifism or Code of Honour are Negative Qualities in the game. I love them, and they provide fantastic storylines, but they come with a downside, and that can be either external interference, moral conflict, or in the case of outr Adept, falling behind the SOTA curve (which is a MASSIVE downside to magic in general, but that's another thread)
E) there are excellent (and canon) short stories describing Awakened characters accepting Cyber (normally in response to fear from a run that sent them to hospital, killed an ally, or blew off an arm etc etc). This can be just as much of a roleplaying point as the idealistic refusal to accept it.
F) Shadowrun is about living on the edge, survival of the fittest. Everyone in the Shadows is hunting down the next thing that will help them get more nuyen, survive another day, and maybe, just maybe, give them that big break freeing them from the shadows forever. Sure, some nice comfortable, SINner Magician College professor can afford to maintain his awakened purity, but working in the shadows is not that easy, and any runner (Awakened or not) should grasp any edge that they can get.
G) By your rationale, there's no market for 2nd hand ware either, as the street sam wouldn't consider such a thing. However, you take what you can get.... This is true even for the awakened...

'Too much is never enough'

Current PC: Free Spirit (Norse Shamanic)
'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

Phreak Commandment V:
If Thou Be In School, Strive To Get Thine Self Good Grades, For The Authorities Well Know That Scholars Never Break The Law

Man Who Walks At Night

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« Reply #29 on: <03-18-11/0027:39> »
Whoa... maybe I'm reading too much into the tone here, but it sounds like a chill pill script needs to be administered.

I'm sorry if I came off a bit harsh there - but its a pet peeve of mine that people optimize chars beyond what makes sense from a roleplaying perspective - it was not directed at you (although I can understand if it seemed like it) but more against the principle that I think the roleplaying part of making a character is often overlooked in favor of maxing out game technical capabilities.

A) It's a game

Yes, but its also a roleplaying game - while playing, the player is supposed to take on the role of the character - and as such, it needs to be believable more than optimized :) If every character in books, movies and plays where optimized it would truly be some sad fiction :)

B) There's every chance a PC's development didn't ALLOW for refusal. If an adept works for Aztech/UCAS/Renraku etc, is he really going to say 'No' when the bosses come by to explain a little upgrade?

No, but again, I don't think people (or corps) gamble with peoples awakened abilities like that - they don't have a 0 to 6 rating judging how much bio/cyberware someone can take before being burned out - its a gamble if that piece of "upgrade" will render them mundane forever. Awakened people are damn rare in the world, if a corp (or army) "aquires" such talent, I don't think they are prone to gamble it all for a little cyber/bioware.

C) As for min/maxing, I'll admit this is always a concern. However until the balance shifts back from Bioware towards Magic for what adepts can do, I'll take an R4 Muscle Toner vs 6 points of magic raising my Agilityx4 (@1.5 per point over Racial Limit), thank you very much indeed.

Muscle Toner is ridiculously overpowered compared to everything else - granted, but anyway, my concern is - you should not need to make this choice, yes it makes you better in combat, but if this is a must in campaigns, then we have reached a sad point in the world of shadowrun if it is something everyone just have to have to be able to play. Something I could rant about for a long time in general, any character without extra IP's is basically out of luck in shadowrun these days, the old non-enhanced detective of shadowrun 1st ed is never a viable option if there is just one person in the group going the route of "how do I max out my character", as soon as one person does it, everyone needs to do it at the table to survive the increased challenges the GM has to come up with (which again leads to another series of problems as the GM is then forced to have every single grunt security guard enhanced (or have 30 guards for every runner) - it just leads to a never ending escalation of things.

D) Idealistic PC's while great Roleplaying points, have to accept some limitations in that regard. This is why ideals such as Pacifism or Code of Honour are Negative Qualities in the game. I love them, and they provide fantastic storylines, but they come with a downside, and that can be either external interference, moral conflict, or in the case of outr Adept, falling behind the SOTA curve (which is a MASSIVE downside to magic in general, but that's another thread)

E) there are excellent (and canon) short stories describing Awakened characters accepting Cyber (normally in response to fear from a run that sent them to hospital, killed an ally, or blew off an arm etc etc). This can be just as much of a roleplaying point as the idealistic refusal to accept it.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't (as it is currently) be the rule, but rather the exception. It should be something done to survive, a whole character concept introduced (hacker adepts as we are originally discussing here :P) relying on awakened people with cyberware makes this the rule and not the exception.

F) Shadowrun is about living on the edge, survival of the fittest. Everyone in the Shadows is hunting down the next thing that will help them get more nuyen, survive another day, and maybe, just maybe, give them that big break freeing them from the shadows forever. Sure, some nice comfortable, SINner Magician College professor can afford to maintain his awakened purity, but working in the shadows is not that easy, and any runner (Awakened or not) should grasp any edge that they can get.

And Magic IS the edge - the pure power of it overshadows anything else, and its rare, adepts turning to bio/cyberware is not about the shadowrun universe, its not done with basis in the canon, but with basis in rules and how to optimize your character. The problem may lie in the fact that a pure adept starts the game less powerful than a full blown cyber monster, but in the long run the roles are changed, I think this is the problem - if you had 3-4 more power points from start, I doubt we would see people doing this. Fact is, awakened characters are weaker to begin with, but can advance far beyond mundanes, its a balance problem started with the initiation procedure for awakened. If I could ask for one new thing in Shadowrun 5th edition it would be an "initiation process" for mundanes to remove this problem.

G) By your rationale, there's no market for 2nd hand ware either, as the street sam wouldn't consider such a thing. However, you take what you can get.... This is true even for the awakened...

Not quite the same - a street sam doesn't throw away special abilities, a way of living and seeing life - by using 2nd hand ware, he just gets a bad quality product of what he would have liked to have, a lesser version, lower rating, but still essentially the same he is used to and wants.
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