[Lormyr]

Do what you got to do man. I'll do the same.

Edit: Just saw your edit above. No, I don't think it has to do with favoritism, nor have a I said as much. I totally buy that your eyes aren't everywhere and you don't see it all, that stands to reason. The hiding behind your skirt comment was also not a dis on you. My point is when I talk shit I am prepared to take my licks. I don't need someone else to handle my battles for me.

[FastJack]

Do what you got to do man. I'll do the same.

See, THAT is not a post that receives any action. Why? Because you didn't insult anyone.

Let me be clear to everyone. "Handling it yourself" leads to only getting yourself warned/banned. By NOT using the tools given to you, you are not being "tough" or anything, you're just making it more difficult to moderate. If MC is such a burden to everyone, and you report his posts, and the reports have merit, he will be punished for those posts. If you think we are moderating only those that dislike 6E, you're very mistaken. We moderate based on actions and attitude.

[Lormyr]

My man, being tough or similar has nothing to do with it, nor is it applicable. No one is tough on the internet. It's about self respect. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I probably won't be able to explain it in a way that will with any more detail.

This has derailed 0B's good works enough though. If you want to continue you know my PM.

[0B]

Remember folks, this is the "Fun" with surveys thread... I feel like every other thread, folks come in with their own baggage and history. I like hearing other folks' perspectives and Reaver and FastJack have been super helpful. A lot of the problems with my original survey were because I didn't set it up right to begin with (IE, the "It's complicated" answer being inherently complicated). I know I get frustrated if I don't think I'm getting my point across, "social stuff" isn't really my thing. I probably am too attached to the survey because I'm the one who made it, so I should try and listen to others more.

I think that there are issues with the dataset, but not to the extent that this is "unuseful."

However, there are definitely ways it could be improved. Honestly, the whole question about what you like/dislike about the edition isn't helpful because it's not specific enough: IE, one respondent said they disliked "matrix," but then clarified that they really just didn't like technomancers. It's possible others felt the same but didn't clarify.

Convenience sampling bias is a thing. I'd imagine that people who are really interested or really disinterested in the topic are more likely to respond. However... for what purpose? I'd also be curious how you would do a voluntary, true-random survey, while still targeting these specific populations.

Also, I got a new survey out- this one's about your favorite editions

Link isnt workin :/


I also did a poll on 6th ed quite  a while ago.
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30525.0

The set up is somewhat different. And also the purpose.

Apologies! Didn't see this until after work. Link is: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdlJR3AshuRh7Q7lhXMjEK-cp3vW6H6sVuakgGuav8PYwvJUg/viewform?usp=sf_link

[sagehoge]

shadowrun is fun

[0B]

Convenience sampling bias is a thing. I'd imagine that people who are really interested or really disinterested in the topic are more likely to respond. However... for what purpose? I'd also be curious how you would do a voluntary, true-random survey, while still targeting these specific populations.

Also, I got a new survey out- this one's about your favorite editions

The only way to get the random sampling is to either go to GenCon or something similar and survey passerbys, or to take a random sample of your sample (but that requires a lot more responses).

The issue there is that you'd be leaving out the European community. However, their books are different from ours so that might be an OK thing to do.

I think it's fair to say that not all of the US playerbase is represented by con-goers. You may miss out on the under-18 players, or on players whose jobs do not permit them a lot of freetime. Both of these groups may have different experiences with the game (How does a tight schedule affect whether someone wants to dedicate time to picking up a new edition, how does less money affect when a player decides to buy a new book, etc.)

[wraith]

Convenience sampling bias is a thing. I'd imagine that people who are really interested or really disinterested in the topic are more likely to respond. However... for what purpose? I'd also be curious how you would do a voluntary, true-random survey, while still targeting these specific populations.

Also, I got a new survey out- this one's about your favorite editions

The only way to get the random sampling is to either go to GenCon or something similar and survey passerbys, or to take a random sample of your sample (but that requires a lot more responses).

The issue there is that you'd be leaving out the European community. However, their books are different from ours so that might be an OK thing to do.

I think it's fair to say that not all of the US playerbase is represented by con-goers. You may miss out on the under-18 players, or on players whose jobs do not permit them a lot of freetime. Both of these groups may have different experiences with the game (How does a tight schedule affect whether someone wants to dedicate time to picking up a new edition, how does less money affect when a player decides to buy a new book, etc.)

Yeah, given that Pegasus does separate German language specific content as well as significantly re-editing SR books to a much higher standard as part of their translation process, it would be very hard to make a 1:1 comparison.  They're effectively seperate but closely related games.

[0B]

I might have to walk back my statement, though- recently got a PM that a lot of European gamers outside of Germany and France use the English versions of the books, since it's more common for them to have English as a second language than German.

Either way, I think this just shows the difficulty of getting a true sampling of the entire Shadowrun community, either random or via convenience.

[Michael Chandra]

Pegasus 'Since Orichalcum was made more expensive in SR5, let's take this 4m-per-dram reagent and ALSO make it way more expensive!' is not my primary booksource as European, and buying that book really made me regret bothering to give them money.

[0B]

Oh, I'm sure folks have scar tissue over that edition, and probably over French versions as well. I haven't read either, I can't say.

The point is, different books may have different reactions. I think it would be a mistake to ignore those parts of the SR community, even though it does make gauging edition popularity more difficult. It's also possible that the quality is the same across the board but popularity is different, or that popularity is the same across the board but quality is different.

You'd be hard pressed to find an objective measure of how "good" a book is, but it's easier to gauge how many people like an edition. Except, of course, when different translations have different rules. Hopefully the decisions on when rules should be different aren't based on how easy it is for some rando to make a survey on it

[0B]

Survey results

Thanks to penllawen for editing!

TL;DR

• Majority of answers came from r/Shadowrun (40.3%) and RPG.net (25.2%).
• 4chan /tg/ (10.1%), SR Union Facebook Group (5.0%), and the ShadowRN Mailing List (4.4%) made up a sizeable chunk as well.
• In general, the average amount of “Like” percentage is a little higher if the player has played the edition, and a lot higher if they’ve bought a book for the edition. Or perhaps they are simply more likely to play and buy a game that they like?
• High score on books owned is 389. I did check with this respondent- they have a copy of every book, AND they have multiple printings and languages for some. They have extras of some of these books for table use as well.
• The most liked edition is 3e, with a ratio of 146 likes to 15 dislikes.
• Too close to call to apply this to the rest of the population, though. 3e's proportion of likes-to-dislikes is 91%, and 2e's is 86%. Their confidence intervals overlap, meaning that it's still possible for 2e to be more liked than 3e in the total population.
• With 95% confidence, 6e is less liked than all other editions, even when you account for if players have played it before or bought a book for it.
• There is no overlap here.
• Make sure to look at the margin of error, not just the sample result. For example, the proportion of people who like 1e and 5e are close enough that we can’t say which one is more “liked” among the total population.

[Lormyr]

That shows SR6 waaaay behind everything else in the likes/dislikes ratio. Can't say that is surprising. I haven't played anything other than 5/6 though, but it makes me wish I had seen 3rd.

[adzling]

I think that 6e is still in it's first printing (i.e. they still have stock of first printing) is also very telling.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

That shows SR6 waaaay behind everything else in the likes/dislikes ratio. Can't say that is surprising. I haven't played anything other than 5/6 though, but it makes me wish I had seen 3rd.

Other than the matrix rules changing whole-cloth each edition, 1e thru 3e were pretty similar.  Each one was basically an errata-included version of the previous.  4th was the first time things really got shook up... 1-3 to 4 was a bigger change than 5 to 6 was... but it's pretty close to how big a shakeup it was.

[0B]

I think that 6e is still in it's first printing (i.e. they still have stock of first printing) is also very telling.

Some of that can be attributed to printer slowdowns with Covid. On the other hand, 6e came out in August 2019 and the slowdowns didn't really start until late February 2020. You would have expected at least a second printing in the first 6 months