[Odsh]

Sometimes I really wonder why the rules to do simple things have to be this convoluted and vague.

I'm a mage in astral projection. I want to destroy a mana barrier, or at least do enough damage to get through. With a weapon focus.
Bread and butter.

If you want to break through a mana barrier, you need to deal with its Structure rating, just as you would with any other barrier. A mana barrier has Structure rating generated at its creation (usually tied to hits on spellcasting tests). Break it quickly, because they regain their full rating at the end of every combat round. The creator of a mana barrier is instantly aware of any attack on the barrier.

To break a larger hole in a barrier, you need to use an Attack Action or series of Attack Actions with a weapon that has a Damage Value that meets or exceeds one half the Structure rating.

For regular firearms and non-specialized melee weapons, compare the base Damage Value (DV) to the Structure rating. As long as the base DV is at least half the Structure rating, the weapon creates a one-centimeter diameter hole in the structure. If the base DV is more than half or equal to the Structure rating, the hole is two centimeters in diameter. If the base DV is greater than the Structure rating, the hole’s diameter grows by one centimeter for every point of DV greater than Structure rating.

Specialized melee weapons, including axes, picks, and hammers, gain a little boost. Make a Strength Test and use the hits to modify the base DV of the Weapon and create a modified Damage Value. These weapons can make a five-centimeter-diameter hole if the modified Damage Value is at least half the Structure rating but less than the full Structure rating. They can be used to make a ten-centimeter-diameter hole with each Attack Action if their modified Damage Value is equal to the Structure rating. For every point greater than the Structure rating, the hole’s diameter grows by one centimeter. Weapons with a Damage Value of less than half the Structure rating cannot penetrate.

After all is said and done, if the gamemaster thinks the hole that was made is large enough to compromise the structural integrity of a larger section, they can have the entire structure collapse.

I think that should cover it as far as RAW is concerned.

So, would someone please be so kind as to answer the following questions.

• Which kind of weapon foci are considered to be "specialized" against mana barriers? The same kind that are specialized against physical barriers in the physical world?
• In case of a specialized weapon focus, I assume the projecting mage makes a Charisma test instead of a Strength test?
• What hole size is necessary for an astral form to slip through a barrier? The same as for its physical form to slip through a physical barrier?
• If yes, do you agree that it is practically impossible for a single projecting mage to make a hole big enough to slip through a decent barrier before it fully regenerates?
• If the mana barrier suffers an "entire structure collapse", does it still regenerate at the end of each combat round? Or is it from then on completely destroyed?
• What kind of hole(s) do you usually consider is (are) enough to "compromise the structural integrity" of the mana barrier sufficiently to achieve that?
• So to summarize, whether a mage can break through a mana barrier or not depends entirely on GM fiat?

Bonus questions:

• I assume you can dispel a mana barrier created by a spell?
• If yes, is the dispelling test in some way affected by the barrier's spell-blocking properties?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Sometimes I really wonder why the rules to do simple things have to be this convoluted and vague.

I'm a mage in astral projection. I want to destroy a mana barrier, or at least do enough damage to get through. With a weapon focus.
Bread and butter.

Well, bashing a hole in the barrier is not the ideal route.  It's far simpler, mechanically, to just "press through", as described in the 3rd paragraph of the "Getting Around Mana Barriers" section on pg. 162. 

However if you'd rather knock the barrier "down" (maybe you've got too many spells/foci to bring them all through), then that references the physical barrier rules on pg 112.

• Which kind of weapon foci are considered to be "specialized" against mana barriers? The same kind that are specialized against physical barriers in the physical world?
• In case of a specialized weapon focus, I assume the projecting mage makes a Charisma test instead of a Strength test?
• What hole size is necessary for an astral form to slip through a barrier? The same as for its physical form to slip through a physical barrier?
• If yes, do you agree that it is practically impossible for a single projecting mage to make a hole big enough to slip through a decent barrier before it fully regenerates?
• If the mana barrier suffers an "entire structure collapse", does it still regenerate at the end of each combat round? Or is it from then on completely destroyed?
• What kind of hole(s) do you usually consider is (are) enough to "compromise the structural integrity" of the mana barrier sufficiently to achieve that?
• So to summarize, whether a mage can break through a mana barrier or not depends entirely on GM fiat?

Bonus questions:

• I assume you can dispel a mana barrier created by a spell?
• If yes, is the dispelling test in some way affected by the barrier's spell-blocking properties?

1. Anything the GM says counts.  "If it's got a shape that is useful for hacking through a real world barrier, then that works of astral ones too" is as viable a metric as any other.  Maybe the focus has some backstory that includes it being created to shatter the mana prison holding some spirit within... that would certainly count.  Whatever the GM likes

2. The answer probably depends on whether you're projecting or not.  STR if you're in the physical world/Astral Perception, CHA would thematically sub in while Projecting.

3. This is the can of worms.  For simplicity's sake: I'd recommend just saying any size hole will do, assuming you're successful in making one.  The damn thing is gonna close up again at the end of the round anyway.  Of course, if you're carrying an arsenal of Foci, the GM should feel free to require a "bigger hole" if they feel it's warranted.

4. See #3.

5. I don't think the logic of physical collapse has any reason to carry over to mana barriers.  They're magic.

6. See #5.  You want to make a barrier go away?  There are other avenues for that.  Violence seems to be implicitly incorrect, since they regenerate fully every round.

7. Due to the question of "how big does the hole have to be"/#3, yes.  But again, Pressing Through is still an option.  And probably easier to boot.

Bonus answers:

1. If it's an actively sustained spell, yes.  Wards made thru rituals?  I don't believe they count as spells, and therefore would not be subject to dispelling.  However as anchored rituals, you can potentially end them by identifying and moving a physical component of their anchor...

2. So first of all, barriers only grant bonuses to  resisting SPELLS that target something while passing through.  Of course, certain Critter powers should also be included, so let's presume that Dispelling is not ruled out on account of not being a spell.  That leaves the second part of the rule: if you're targeting the barrier itself, your effect is not passing THROUGH the barrier to a target on the other side.  Unless it's a layered setup... but even then you could just target the outermost barrier and work your way in.

[Shinobi Killfist]

For 2, assuming its on the astral I'd say traditions drain stat.  Unlike previous editions, astral combat damage is not based on chr but drain stat.  So for a astral attack your die roll is will+skill with a AR based on tradition attribute and a damage value based on tradition attribute.  Effectively all the roles strength takes in close combat is taken by your tradition attribute.

This is one of the few improvements in 6e with its magic system, the game is more tradition stat neutral instead of just handing 90% of it to charisma. Charisma helps with pushing through, logic is in astral dodge stat, intuition and willpower are used in a few places otherwise its drain stat(hopefully no intuition traditions in 6e show up, they were always a bad idea given how intuition is such a key attribute even without this)

[Michael Chandra]

As a GM, I wouldn't apply weapon foci type or whatnot to the specifics. I don't care if you're using a hammer, a sword, or a fist: You're attacking a Mana Barrier, not an actual wall. If you have a weapon focus, I'd count it as specialised. Your fist isn't. Spellcasting would be specialised in my opinion.

As to what you roll: I'd follow the Astral Combat Table on p161. Again, you're attacking something magical, this isn't about your physical attributes, this is about your magical prowess. So with a weapon focus, you roll Close Combat + Willpower, and the damage is as of the weapon.

Any decent hole should suffice to break through, since this is the Astral. Surely you can squeeze astrally as well.

While I lean towards allowing Boosted Defense against rituals targeting you, and dispelling Mana Barrier spells, dispelling a Ward sounds too cheap to me. So the ritual Ward, I wouldn't let you dispell permanently, but as a GM I probably WOULD let you dispell it temporarily, where its hits regenerate every combat turn so if you manage to down its hits to 0, it temporarily disrupts and everyone can get by during that turn. Not sure if the creator would know, though.

[Odsh]

Thanks for all your responses.

Well, bashing a hole in the barrier is not the ideal route.  It's far simpler, mechanically, to just "press through", as described in the 3rd paragraph of the "Getting Around Mana Barriers" section on pg. 162.

Yep, I'm well aware of that option.

3. This is the can of worms.  For simplicity's sake: I'd recommend just saying any size hole will do, assuming you're successful in making one.  The damn thing is gonna close up again at the end of the round anyway.  Of course, if you're carrying an arsenal of Foci, the GM should feel free to require a "bigger hole" if they feel it's warranted.

Interesting, I didn't see that coming honestly.

So with a combat axe weapon focus and a not too botched roll on the attribute test for specialized melee weapons, you can basically get through (5cm diameter hole) any mana barrier that has a realistic rating. Unless the GM rules out that because of all the foci you are carrying, you need the 10cm+ diameter hole, which might be more complicated to achieve for higher rating barriers.

In any case, it means that mana barriers are not meant to stop any competent mage trying to get through this way. It's more of an alarm to the owner when someone does break through (instead of pressing through, I know).

I might as well houserule a shorter and less binary version of all that by stating for example that the mage can break through if:
(weapon focus DV) + (hits on attribute roll)
is greater than:
(barrier rating/2, rounded down) + (number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms that come along)

If you don't bring along any astral form with you, most of the time it's still a guaranteed break through.

As to what you roll: I'd follow the Astral Combat Table on p161. Again, you're attacking something magical, this isn't about your physical attributes, this is about your magical prowess. So with a weapon focus, you roll Close Combat + Willpower, and the damage is as of the weapon.

You're rolling an attribute plus a skill here, instead of solely an attribute. So you'll likely get more hits than intended by RAW.
As I see it, the reason why a skill isn't involved is that the barrier doesn't move, so it's more of a brute force test than a skill test.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

... it means that mana barriers are not meant to stop any competent mage trying to get through this way. It's more of an alarm to the owner when someone does break through (instead of pressing through, I know).

Short Answer?  Yes, I feel basically that's right.  However, remember that mana barriers don't have to be 2 dimensional planes.  Getting through a barrier is more like getting INTO a box.  Which seals back up after you get into it.  And there's no hiding that you broke in.  And the mana barrier creator, and anyone he wants to come with, can come right through to come do something about you being there.  And you're trapped in there until you break (or press) back out again while they're giving you your welcome for having broken in.

I might as well houserule a shorter and less binary version of all that by stating for example that the mage can break through if:
(weapon focus DV) + (hits on attribute roll)
is greater than:
(barrier rating/2, rounded down) + (number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms that come along)

If you don't bring along any astral form, most of the time it's still a guaranteed break through.

Well, if you're walking around with a womping Force 6 Focus, you're a badass.  It's basically just and deserving that you can carve through most barriers... that thing is basically a Light Saber on the astral.  But do note that errata was issued for the Ward ritual, and Force 12+ barriers are well within the realm of plausibility.  Excalibur itself might not get through a Great Dragon's ward round its lair...

Edit: I forgot that Weapon Focus DV on the Astral is not derived from Force.  So yeah even a Force 1 Monofilament Whip weapon focus (frag, I hate those) is potentially going to carve.  Some suggestions:
1) Go ahead and require a bigger hole, if the added complexity is worth the bother.
2) Say that whip weapons don't get their full DV against barriers when you lash them against walls/sheets.  C'mon, how's the weighted tip going to penetrate the wall at all? How are you going to get damage like you do on a metahuman when the wire doesn't wrap around anything?
3) Rule that certain DV-enhancing powers and modifications (Crit Strike, etc) do not benefit weapons when used on barriers unless they say they work when attacking barriers.
4) Double reminder that Wards, created through ritual, can very easily be quite high in Force. DV3 or DV4 is gonna be the practical bare minimum to punch through anything created via ritual.

[Xenon]

Ward Rituals are often there as an alert system and to make it a bit harder for astral entities to infiltrate. If you attack it then alarms will go off (so this is typically not the approach you want to go for).


Note that a mana barrier spell cast on the physical plane only make it harder to cast spells through it on the physical plane (not on the astral plane), it does not impose visual modifiers for an astral observer nor does it stop wholly astral entities from moving through the location of the barrier.

...so I am assuming that the mana barrier you are talking about in this thread is a mana barrier spell cast on the astral plane, a magical lodge, a ward ritual or a circle of protection ritual.

Besides attacking the barrier you also have the option to press through the barrier or move around the barrier (but this seem to be out of scope for now). Since you are interested in breaking down mana barriers I should probably still mention that when you walk around on the physical plane you are often unaware of the existence of barriers (as they are invisible on the physical plane) and you can also normally just walk through them (or ride an elevator through them) without noticing them at all, however, if you do this while having active magic (such as activated foci or sustained or quickened spells etc) then your active magic will forcefully collide with the barrier (which will cause disruption in either the barrier or the active magic that was forced into the barrier, or all of them):

1. Activate foci and walk through the barrier.
2. Repeat until the barrier dissipate.
3. ??
4. Profit



It doesn't say if weapon foci, killing hands and spells are 'specialized' weapons to bring down mana barriers or not. Either you rule that they are or you rule that they are not. This is something you probably need to discuss at the table.

Note that, unlike previous edition, you don't actually perform an actual attack (in previous edition net hits on the attack would let you make a bigger hole). Which is a reason why you perhaps want to rule that they count as 'specialized' when it comes to attacking mana barriers.

But also note that there is no mentioning about them acting as 'specialized' when attacking mana barriers and there is no mentioning about if you should roll Charisma (which is used to Press through mana barriers) or Tradition Attribute (which is used for astral combat damage) to boost the damage value of your 'specialized' weapon. Which are two reasons why you should perhaps want to rule that they does not count as 'specialized' when it comes to attacking mana barriers.



Not sure if 'size' have any relevance on the astral plane. Either you rule that it does (and it will be hard to create a hole big enough to escape through before it recharge at the end of the combat turn) or you rule that it doesn't (and it will be easy to escape through a mana barrier as you just need any sized hole). Or you rule that the hole need to meet a specific diameter before you can squeeze through it.

Note that entities that have 3D6 initiative dice (like spirits you summon) can potentially attack twice in the same combat round.



I see nothing about mana barriers collapsing if their structure reach zero (like physical barriers that are affected by physical properties such as gravity etc). It seem as if they will just regenerate at the end of the combat turn, but I can see good arguments either way.



Mana barriers spells cast on either the physical plane or the astral plane are regular sustained spells and like all other sustained spells they can be dispelled, following standard rules for dispelling (and you are not trying to dispel something on the other side of the barrier).

Circle of Protection Ritual and Ward Ritual are both rituals, not spells - so it doesn't seem as if you can dispel them. They are both Anchored rituals. If you manage to move the physical object they are anchored to the ritual will end.

Medicine Lodges are not sustained spells and can not be simply dispelled.

If you don't bring along any astral form...

You yourself get an astral form whenever you use astral perception or astral projection (which is the reason why you can't pass through mana barriers when using astral perception or astral projection but you can just walk through them as normal when you use your physical perception)

[MercilessMing]

So yeah even a Force 1 Monofilament Whip weapon focus (frag, I hate those) is potentially going to carve.

The idea of a mono whip weapon focus is ridiculous.  A mono whip is only deadly because the materials it's made of enable that kind of physics.  You can't just add orichalcum and call it a day. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So yeah even a Force 1 Monofilament Whip weapon focus (frag, I hate those) is potentially going to carve.

The idea of a mono whip weapon focus is ridiculous.  A mono whip is only deadly because the materials it's made of enable that kind of physics.  You can't just add orichalcum and call it a day.

Preaching to the choir... but good luck getting through a convention's worth of SRM without seeing at least one.

[Odsh]

If you don't bring along any astral form...

You yourself get an astral form whenever you use astral perception or astral projection (which is the reason why you can't pass through mana barriers when using astral perception or astral projection but you can just walk through them as normal when you use your physical perception)

Quite right, that was poor wording on my part. Fixed that.

Thanks all for your suggestions. It's in times like these that I remember why I always had all these houserules in my SR games 

[Sir Ludwig]

I must be lucky, never seen one....but now that it's in my mind, I can't unsee it. 

Thanks,
SL

So yeah even a Force 1 Monofilament Whip weapon focus (frag, I hate those) is potentially going to carve.

The idea of a mono whip weapon focus is ridiculous.  A mono whip is only deadly because the materials it's made of enable that kind of physics.  You can't just add orichalcum and call it a day.

Preaching to the choir... but good luck getting through a convention's worth of SRM without seeing at least one.