[kainite311]

So trying to learn 6e rules, and seeing some if the same hot mess of previous editions (at least they are consistent it seems...). Anyways looking at the Technomancer and have some questions on how things integrate with matrix perception on them. Do the following stack? And if so how?

So according to book p.189-
Technomancers can experience AR, VR, and hot-sim with no extra gear, and they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178) with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.
Is this just normal everyday non-silent running?

Running silent on p. 178 states that the matrix perception is an opposed roll of Electronics + Intuition vs. Willpower + Sleaze

And finally the phantom power of a sprite which becomes Electronics + Resonance test, with net hits becoming the threshold for the Matrix Perception test.

So how do these all interact vs someone searching for hidden icons. Do they make one single perception roll and compare it to all the above results and has to beat all of them (seems the easiest/most simple)?

Do they have to make a separate perception roll vs each and beat them (seems like a lot of rolling)?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So trying to learn 6e rules, and seeing some if the same hot mess of previous editions (at least they are consistent it seems...). Anyways looking at the Technomancer and have some questions on how things integrate with matrix perception on them. Do the following stack? And if so how?

So according to book p.189-
Technomancers can experience AR, VR, and hot-sim with no extra gear, and they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178) with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.
Is this just normal everyday non-silent running?

No, that's to tell that the icon is a device-less Living Persona as opposed to a commlink generated Persona icon like most everyone else has.  It's not to just see them in the first place.  Think of this particular rule as being analogous to reading an aura via Assensing.

Running silent on p. 178 states that the matrix perception is an opposed roll of Electronics + Intuition vs. Willpower + Sleaze

And finally the phantom power of a sprite which becomes Electronics + Resonance test, with net hits becoming the threshold for the Matrix Perception test.

So how do these all interact vs someone searching for hidden icons. Do they make one single perception roll and compare it to all the above results and has to beat all of them (seems the easiest/most simple)?

Do they have to make a separate perception roll vs each and beat them (seems like a lot of rolling)?

The intent is for Matrix Perception to mirror Perception for the physical world.  You're supposed to treat spotting numerous hidden icons the same way you would treat spotting (for example) numerous hidden ambushers in the real world.  Probably 1 roll compared against them all, but maybe there's niche times you really want more than one roll.  It's not a hard and fast rule... up to the GM to determine best practice.  One thing I'd throw out there as rules/advice is to remember the penalty for successively trying to spot something after you've already failed (Trying Again, pg 36 SR6) Edit: a 2nd thing I'll mention is 6e intentionally ditches the 5e concepts of explicitly only getting 1 hidden/silent icon at a time, and it ABSOLUTELY ditches the idea that you have to roll against a randomly selected icon rather than something you're specifically trying to spot.

[kainite311]

So trying to learn 6e rules, and seeing some if the same hot mess of previous editions (at least they are consistent it seems...). Anyways looking at the Technomancer and have some questions on how things integrate with matrix perception on them. Do the following stack? And if so how?

So according to book p.189-
Technomancers can experience AR, VR, and hot-sim with no extra gear, and they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178) with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.
Is this just normal everyday non-silent running?

No, that's to tell that the icon is a device-less Living Persona as opposed to a commlink generated Persona icon like most everyone else has.  It's not to just see them in the first place.  Think of this particular rule as being analogous to reading an aura via Assensing.

Curious how you come to that conclusion. Is there something you could point me too? Admittedly I have done only 1 read and a few back and forth search attempts to simulate how things work. The wording however seems clear in the context about being "seen", not recognized as a technomancer. But I am willing to admit they have pretty poor wording choices as always all over the place. Even the whole "typically requiring a... minimum of 5 hits..." makes me wonder why it is not a static number (and then why not define non-typical example...)

[Odsh]

Curious how you come to that conclusion. Is there something you could point me too? Admittedly I have done only 1 read and a few back and forth search attempts to simulate how things work. The wording however seems clear in the context about being "seen", not recognized as a technomancer. But I am willing to admit they have pretty poor wording choices as always all over the place. Even the whole "typically requiring a... minimum of 5 hits..." makes me wonder why it is not a static number (and then why not define non-typical example...)

I don't think you'll find anything on that in the CRB. However, there is something in the author's FAQ:

Matrix Perception and Technomancers - the 5 hits required to see a technomancer is to see that they are a technomancer, just detecting them as another icon on the matrix is a normal perception check as determined by the circumstances. However to know that they are a technomancer and just not another decker requires you to observe in detail and score at least 5 hits.

[kainite311]

Curious how you come to that conclusion. Is there something you could point me too? Admittedly I have done only 1 read and a few back and forth search attempts to simulate how things work. The wording however seems clear in the context about being "seen", not recognized as a technomancer. But I am willing to admit they have pretty poor wording choices as always all over the place. Even the whole "typically requiring a... minimum of 5 hits..." makes me wonder why it is not a static number (and then why not define non-typical example...)

I don't think you'll find anything on that in the CRB. However, there is something in the author's FAQ:

Matrix Perception and Technomancers - the 5 hits required to see a technomancer is to see that they are a technomancer, just detecting them as another icon on the matrix is a normal perception check as determined by the circumstances. However to know that they are a technomancer and just not another decker requires you to observe in detail and score at least 5 hits.

So poor wording strikes again eh? Thank you. Is that a normal perception check? Or actual study in detail type check?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes, I happen to have the good fortune to be friends with the author and happen to know his intent on that.  It's come up before

Of course, my word as for what his intention doesn't necessarily do you any good... so as Odsh pointed out you can see the intent from the source

...Is that a normal perception check? Or actual study in detail type check?

My own take (because again see what I said above about the 'down in the weeds' level of adjudication of matrix perception rolls are reserved to GM judgement):

Look at the rules for Matrix Perception:

A
single net hit will give you basic information, such as
device rating, or whatever name the device or icon
calls itself. Two net hits will give you more specific
information, including individual attribute ratings,
and what programs it is currently running. Additional
hits will give you more information based on what
the gamemaster wishes to reveal.

The fact that the persona is a technomancer is a bit of information that explicitly requires 5 net hits rather than "GM decides how many".

[Odsh]

So poor wording strikes again eh?

Trying to make sense of the Shadowrun rules has always been a game in itself 

[kainite311]

Clarifying my question on perception test...

If you search for hidden icons, does a success merely spot them and you must then spend a second perception to gain info? Or roll high enough to spot hidden icon and net hits past the stealth(silent, phantom, whatever the your using threshold number), may give you info?

Example: Bob the techno is running silent. Spider does a matrix perception check to spot hidden icons. Spider rolls 8 hits, Bob rolls 3 hits. Does Spider merely see that Bob is hidden (and then has to make a separate analyze icon(books words...), or do the extra 5 hits carry over to gain useful info about Bob being a techno?

[kainite311]

So poor wording strikes again eh?

Trying to make sense of the Shadowrun rules has always been a game in itself 

I personally think figuring out rigger stats for various vehicle modes, or A.I's inside devices stats (stuff like AI inside a cyberdeck, use deck stats, AI stats, and then the Depth stat monkey wrench) were my personal favorite game in 5e

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Is that a normal perception check? Or actual study in detail type check?

I'd like to go down into the weeds a bit here... I already a gave pure rules answer above.

Ok so you're playing a Technomancer.  You have a well-warranted fear that if someone realizes your status, it might cause trouble.  At least from the 5e lore, the Matrix is built/maintained on the pureed brains of Technomancers, and you'd hate for some corp to suck your soul (literally) to power a new host somewhere. Good news though, is it's actually pretty hard to suss that detail out about your icon (since it takes 5+ net hits)

So, you're hacking a corp host because of course you are.  That's your job on the team.  You're going silent because you don't want to kick off alarms that could tip off the physical, on-site security.  While you're having your way with the host, Patrol IC and/or Spider will be periodically trying to spot you.  Should they succeed by 5+ hits, not only do they spot you, they simultaneously realize you're a TM, to boot.  Should they succeed on 1-4 net hits, they see you and can learn anything the GM deems appropriate.  5e had a big long (and inclusive) list of viable details that can be learned, like what program(s) are running, what the most recent matrix action was, etc.  6e replaced that whole list, and how many each detail would take to learn, with GM handwaivium.  Part of the paradigm shift from 5e to 6e, you see.  In the case of Technomancers, seeing that the silent running hacker is running 0 programs... is kind of a tell.  Kind of uncool for a strong hint the target is a TM to be learned on 1 hit when it takes 5 hits to know, is it not?  So in 6e what programs you (don't) have running might take 4 hits in the context of a TM, but I might say it's only 2 (or maybe even 1) hit for a conventional decker.  GM fiat baby.   Of course, if IC/Spider sees the hacker, the detail of whether the target is or is not a TM is probably not very important in that moment.  But if they really, really want to know, they can successively try to spot you during cybercombat.  Rather than, you know, engaging you in cybercombat.  Don't see that as a likely outcome... unless they're really really looking for TMs for some reason.

What about when you're not running silent?  Like, probably much of the time. Especially during downtime.  Can't engage in social media/matrix gaming when you're running silent, at least not very well!  So let's say you're in a Tweeter matrix chat room with about 1 million other users.  When you're not running silent, the other million Tweeter users can all see you.  But, you're literally 1 in a million icons.  Who's gonna spend time inspecting that many personas?  Noone, that's who.  You can be "automatically spotted" since you're in the same host as the rest, but unless someone's actually rolling they can't have net hits so *I'd* say in a context like this, even with 1 million people spotting you noone hits 5+ because noone cares to go through the bother of examining you specifically.  But when you troll someone, maybe then they're all "who the frag is this drekhead" and they matrix perception you after reading your hilarious comment.  Since you're not running silent, you're automatically "spotted".  However, if they want to learn details, there's still the opposed roll.  If they get 5+ hits, then not only do they get the automatic spot, they can learn your vulnerable secret.  If they only get 1-4 hits, they can learn other details that could be plausibly discerned* but not that you're a TM.

*
the 5e list of details that were given for matrix perception (not an inclusive list, so you could learn other things too with GM permission)

The most recent edit date of a file.
• The number of boxes of Matrix damage on the target’s
Condition Monitor.
• The presence of a data bomb on a file.
• The programs being run by a persona.
• The target’s device rating.
• The target’s commode.
• The rating of one of the target’s Matrix attributes.
• The type of icon (host, persona, device, file), if it is using a
non-standard (or even illegal) look.
• Whether a file is protected, and at what rating.
• The grid a persona, device, or host is using. (technically obsolete for 6e, but I'd certainly allow someone to learn which matrix service provider the target is using/hacking, if any)
• If you’re out on the grid, whether there is an icon running
silent within 100 meters.
• If you’re in a host, whether there is an icon running silent
in the host.
• If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent,
you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).
• The last Matrix action an icon performed, and when.
• The marks on an icon, but not their owners. (a comparable 6e context, since there are no marks, is who has user/admin access on the icon)

Clarifying my question on perception test...

If you search for hidden icons, does a success merely spot them and you must then spend a second perception to gain info? Or roll high enough to spot hidden icon and net hits past the stealth(silent, phantom, whatever the your using threshold number), may give you info?

Example: Bob the techno is running silent. Spider does a matrix perception check to spot hidden icons. Spider rolls 8 hits, Bob rolls 3 hits. Does Spider merely see that Bob is hidden (and then has to make a separate analyze icon(books words...), or do the extra 5 hits carry over to gain useful info about Bob being a techno?

Yes, any time you have net hits on a matrix perception test, you can learn anything the GM feels appropriate based on those net hits.  Again in 5e the paradigm was 1 detail per net hit, so each detail ended up "costing" 1 hit to learn and you could ask which ones you wanted.  Can do it the same way in 6e, but it's much more free form.  GM decides how much info you get, whether it's the info you specifically want or something else they'd rather reveal... GM has final decision.

[Xenon]

...they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically requiring a successful Matrix Perception test (p. 178) with a minimum of 5 hits to be seen.

Both Perception and Matrix Perception can be used for 3 things

1. To spot things in your vicinity that are hiding from you (things that are not immediately obvious at a first glance).

For example: A guard is patrolling and there are 2 ninjas hiding in the shadows. The guard is allowed to take a Perception test and depending on how well he roll he might spot both of them, one of them or none of them. Same goes when you take a Matrix Perception test to notice two silent running hackers that are infiltrating your host.


2. To spot something specific you have been made aware of or that you are looking for. Extra net hits can often be used to learn information about the thing you were looking for.

For example: A projecting magician can spend an action to take an astral perception test in order to spot their body (if someone hid it while they were away). A sniper is taking a shot at you. You spend an action and take an opposed test to locate the specific sniper that is shooting at you. Same goes for spotting a specific hidden hacker that is data spiking you. You spend a Matrix Perception action and take an opposed test to spot the specific hacker.


3. To Observe in Detail. This is typically not an opposed test and instead depending on how many hits you get you learn different levels of information.

For example: If you observe an astral aura with astral perception then you could learn that the subject is mundane or awakened with 1 hit but it might require 2 hits to sense more specific information such as the presence and location of any cyberware implants. If you get 5+ hits you might sense if the subject is a technomancer or a monad. If you observe a person in detail with regular perception you might learn his eye color with 1 hit but it might require 3 hits to see that his is wearing contact lenses or not. With 1 hit from observing a persona in detail with matrix perception could give you basic information such as the device rating. With 2 hits you get more specific information such as what programs the persona is running. With 5+ hits you might learn that the persona is not based on a device at all (this is where the threshold of 5 comes in for noticing technomancers).

And finally the phantom power of a sprite

The Phantom power is a bit special. It is a matrix sprite equivalent of the Concealment critter power (which is similar to an invisibility spell - on steroids).

Concealment Critter power make the two ninjas in the first scenario impossible to be randomly spotted by the guard (the guard need to first be made aware of them in some other way first, he need to search for them specifically) same as Phantom also make it impossible to randomly spot the two hackers in the first scenario above (the spider need to first be made aware of them in some other way first, he need to search for them specifically).

If the sniper in the second scenario above have the Concealment Critter power (or an Invisibility Spell) then you need to beat both his stealth threshold and his Concealment threshold or the sniper will remain hidden (but they don't stack). If the hidden hacker in the second scenario have the Phantom Sprite power then you need to beat both his Silent Running threshold and his Phantasm threshold or the hacker will remain hidden (but they don't stack).

Both Concealment and Phantom make the thing impossible to be randomly noticed/detected/spotted and even when you specifically look for them they still become hard to notice.

But neither of them make it harder to Observe in Detail (to for example notice if the persona belong to a TM or not) after they have already been spotted.

[kainite311]

While I appreciate the long fluffy answer... The pure answer you refered to is muddied at best, the quoted book passage actually lists them as "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon". It implies one OR the other for the action. The follow up "Running Silent" - makes no mention of learning anything beyond merely detecting them. I will try to clarify why I am asking. Because of action economy mostly. The passages are poorly written (as was the way I asked the question), and as usual we are left with RAW, RAI, and WTH?

The techno part is irrelevant in the end, as I used that as a base to use an established threshold to gain specific info. So lets just drop the techno aspect since you seem unduly focused on that (and I, in keeping in the spirit of the title of post, was using techno as example, may have given you that assumption by not presenting it outside of detecting whether a tecno or not, rather then info in general)

The basic question I asked boils down to- When detecting hidden icons, do I also get all the normal analyze in detail perks if I rolled anything rolled beyond the detect threshold? Can of worms incoming! What about multiple hidden icons? or using matrix perception on several icons at once then? Details following...

I was asking because of action economy. You see a non-hidden icon, you matrix perception it to learn info, 1 minor action. But if you search for hidden icons (again minor action), do you get freebie info after that for no actions (basically possible 2 for 1 action economy)? or must you now actually study the icon you were never aware of to begin with (which would be a second minor action)? Further into the weeds then, if you can learn stuff about hidden icon with a high enough perception check in an all in one action of search for hidden icons, if you do a second perception to try to learn more (either you just rolled enough just to see it, or too low to learn anything you wanted, is the next perception test that now a considered "trying again"? What if there are several hidden icons? Now do you get to learn about ALL of them also (if high enough)? Can you actually use matrix perception to get info from several icons at once (Matrix perception seems to imply single icon under the matrix action)?

See how the ramifications are going? At a glance under matrix action - matrix perception, it appears you can't use the matrix action to garner info about multiple icons at once. But you CAN detect multiple hidden icons at once. If you can then also get info off that detect hidden icon, then against multiple hidden icon you have a chance to do what normal perception cannot seem to do (multiple target info). That is a huge shift in action economy if so...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The basic question I asked boils down to- When detecting hidden icons, do I also get all the normal analyze in detail perks if I rolled anything rolled beyond the detect threshold? Can of worms incoming! What about multiple hidden icons? or using matrix perception on several icons at once then? Details following...

The short answer is this (and I already gave it upthread): However you answer the question in a physical world context, it's the same answer in the matrix context.

I was asking because of action economy. You see a non-hidden icon, you matrix perception it to learn info, 1 minor action. But if you search for hidden icons (again minor action), do you get freebie info after that for no actions (basically possible 2 for 1 action economy)?

You get the freebie info if the GM thinks you should have it. (personally: I think you should get bonus information based on # of net hits every time you roll perception. Both Matrix AND Physical)

or must you now actually study the icon you were never aware of to begin with (which would be a second minor action)?

You have to roll again in certain contexts if the GM thinks you should have to.

Further into the weeds then, if you can learn stuff about hidden icon with a high enough perception check in an all in one action of search for hidden icons, if you do a second perception to try to learn more (either you just rolled enough just to see it, or too low to learn anything you wanted, is the next perception test that now a considered "trying again"?

Pretty much: yes.  Although, what constitutes a sufficient change in circumstances to reset the "trying again" context is explicitly left to GM discretion.  So, you suffer trying again when the GM says you do and you don't when the GM says you don't.

Edit: in the interest of fair play however, if the GM is making you roll once to detect running silent and rolling again to get any potential details, you shouldn't be facing Trying Again penalties when you're still rolling for the first time to get details.  "C'mon, man" factor.  Again *I* would give details based on net hits from the same test you used to spot silent running.  I'd then impose trying again, however, if you perceived again after that in effort to get more/different details.

What if there are several hidden icons? Now do you get to learn about ALL of them also (if high enough)? Can you actually use matrix perception to get info from several icons at once (Matrix perception seems to imply single icon under the matrix action)?

You can if the GM says you can.  For example, if you're in an alleyway with numerous hidden gangers, will you roll once per ganger or once and test against all gangers sneaking? GM call.  Whatever that answer is, it should be the same answer to spot multiple targets running silent the matrix.

Edit 2: and yes, if I were GMing this scene I'd then give you additional information about each ganger's persona based on net hits as compared to each defense test, even though I only asked you to roll once vs all of them.

[Xenon]

The basic question I asked boils down to- When detecting hidden icons, do I also get all the normal analyze in detail perks if I rolled anything rolled beyond the detect threshold?

In this edition Matrix perception is resolved just as how you would resolve regular perception.

When GM is rolling perception for a guard to check if he notice both, one or none of the stealthy ninjas he typically also don't gain detailed information about them. To learn more detailed information he need to spend an action observing one of the ninjas more in detail.

However, if you spend an action to actively search for a specific thing that you already have been made aware of (like that hidden sniper that just fired on you in my previous post) then you will spot it on a tie and use net hits to detect different levels of information.

And if you spend an action to actively Observe something in detail (after you already spotted it) then your hits will typically be used to detect different levels of information.

You see a non-hidden icon, you matrix perception it to learn info, 1 minor action.

It is clear that making a Matrix Perception test to find someone running silent is a typically a Major Action, but if performed by a runner with a cyberdeck, cyberjack, or a Resonance attribute, it is a Minor Action.

Actually not clear if making a Matrix Perception test to observe an icon in detail is also a Minor action for a runner with a cyberdeck, cyberjack, or a Resonance attribute (but for the sake of argument, let us assume it is).

it appears you can't use the matrix action to garner info about multiple icons at once. But you CAN detect multiple hidden icons at once.

This is my reading as well.

And if you spend the time to actually observe one icon in detail then you get to learn information about that icon.

But also, if you are taking an action to specifically look for one specific hidden icon that you have been made aware of then you instead use the tie to spot it and net hits to learn details about that specific icon.

5e had a big long (and inclusive) list of viable details that can be learned, like what program(s) are running, what the most recent matrix action was, etc.  6e replaced that whole list, and how many each detail would take to learn, with GM handwaivium. 

In SR5 you noticed 1 thing per hit. You basically played 20 questions.
To get a list of programs that the persona was running was one question you could ask.

In SR6 matrix perception instead work similar to physical perception and astral perception.
Depending on how many hits you get you now instead notice different 'levels' of information.
To get a list of programs that the persona is running is now 'more specific information' which you typically need 2+ hits to find out.

For both Assensing and Matrix Perception you need 5+ hits to realize that the aura or icon you are observing in detail is a TM.

SR6 p. 159 Assensing
the number of hits they get determines the amount of information they glean from the aura (see Assensing Table).

SR5 p. 182 Matrix Perception
A single net hit will give you basic information, such as device rating, or whatever name the device or icon calls itself. Two net hits will give you more specific information, including individual attribute ratings, and what programs it is currently running. Additional hits will give you more information based on what the gamemaster wishes to reveal.