[Odsh]

I'm creating a new topic since it's not directly related to rigging.

and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.

I wouldn't have counted that towards the augmented limit personally. When making a test, it's usually an Attribute plus a Skill and both have their own augmented limit (for a total of +8). Towards which of the two augmented maximums would the Control Rig apply its bonus? To me it's a flat bonus to the dice pool, not specifically to the Attribute or Skill.

The augmented limit for skill tests* is different than the augmented limit for attributes.

You have a cap of +4 to any attribute.  New to 6e, you have a cap of +4 to any skill test*.  The two augmented limits stack, for a potential +8 bonus dice (capped at +4 though in each category), if you want to look at it that way.

*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test.  To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.

I'm still a bit perplexed about all this.

Let's take the case of a jumped-in rigger who defends against an attack. For his defense dice pool, he has 2 x Intuition.

This is a test "involving the operation of vehicle" as far as I can tell, so the dice pool bonus from the Control Rig should apply.

There is no skill involved in this test, only attributes. Does that mean that if Intuition is already at its augmented maximum, the dice pool bonus from the Control Rig doesn't apply?

So in some cases the Control Rig counts against the augmented maximum of a skill, sometimes the augmented maximum of an attribute?

What about all the foci that add bonus dice to various Magic-related tests? Is it a waste to acquire such a focus past rating 4?

[MercilessMing]

Since they didn’t make a complete list of bonus categories, hard to say.  Lately I’ve been playing that attribute bonuses are per attribute so you could get up to +8 in a two-attr test.  Anything that doesn’t say it’s an attribute or skill bonus has no limit because the book only limits attr and skills.  VCR no limit, foci no limit. They both say they give extra dice to tests.

[Michael Chandra]

First of all, the hard cap of +4 is indeed under debate. Parts of the code were written with the assumption it applies, but it's not phrased clearly enough. If you follow the restriction, it indeed applies to foci and control-rigs normally. Note that I'm saying normally.

Second, the restriction is supposed to apply to NON-attribute parts of the tests. So you have both the Augmented Maximum of the attribute, and the max bonus on the test-pools. There's also some things that don't count against the limit. See the SRM guide for some info on how it's done in Missions.

In other words, you roughly have:

(Attribute + max augmented bonus of 4) + (Skill + max bonus of +4) + Specialization/Expertise
OR
(Attribute + max augmented bonus of 4) + (Attribute + max augmented bonus of 4) + (let's assume a max bonus of 4 here for consistency, even if it's not in the rules).

On a defense test that's 5(9)+5(9)+3, the limit would likely be intended to be max +4, so 22 dice max.

As a sidenote: Say you have a Force 8 Spellcasting Focus. You use Spellshaping at a -4 penalty. That puts you at (+8-4=4, so follows the max bonus of 4). But yes, with Background Count nerfed down, the +4 bonus limit is the only real nerf to Foci. It does help balance things out a bit, so I would suggest to consider it.

[Xenon]

Anything that increases an attribute above its natural, base score is considered an Augmentation. This includes cyberware, bioware, magic, adept powers, drugs, and anything else that adds to your attribute. In all cases, the limit of +4 remains in place unless a power or ability specifically says it breaks that cap.

All dice pool modifications for a skill test, with the exception of modifications already subject to the Augmented Attribute Limit, and specializations/expertise, count against the Augmented Skill Limit.

[Odsh]

Thanks for you answers.

the +4 bonus limit is the only real nerf to Foci. It does help balance things out a bit, so I would suggest to consider it.

That's precisely why I'm very interested in this topic.

If I'm not mistaken, you can without too much trouble (with some positive karma leftover from qualities) initiate at character creation and take a rating 9 Centering focus and rating 9 Spellcasting or Spirit focus. That's +9 dice to both Spellcasting or Summoning and drain. It's really powerful and I can't imagine any good reason to not do that for any magician character.

Limiting that to +4 dice is huge. If this is indeed what is intended, it's really strange that this limitation is not explained a bit better. Just as MercilessMing, I was under the clear impression that bonus dice to dice pools were not limited in any way - unlike bonuses that target specifically Attributes and Skills.

On a defense test that's 5(9)+5(9)+3, the limit would likely be intended to be max +4, so 22 dice max.

With Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), a rigger with a rating 3 Control Rig can have 7(11) + 7(11) + 3 = 25 dice (probably requires a friendly mage or an awakened rigger of some sort as I don't think there are many ways to augment Intuition without magic).

[Xenon]

...initiate at character creation

It seem as if Customization Karma can be spend on 4 different things during chargen (and that Initiation is not one of them);

• skill advancement
• attribute advancement
• additional funds
• qualities

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...initiate at character creation

It seem as if Customization Karma can be spend on 4 different things during chargen (and that Initiation is not one of them);

• skill advancement
• attribute advancement
• additional funds
• qualities

The murkiness behind the intent on restrictions on chargen karma is right up there with the wording on the "skill" augmented limit applying to bonus ranks or bonus dice.

For organized play, it just does not do to have a GM at your friday night game allowing you to add +6 dice from your focus and then another GM at a convention makes you cap that pool at +4.  It's even worse to have one gm allow initiation during chargen, and then another GM inform you your character is illegal and must be rebuilt.  Decisions were made for SRM, but in your home game by all means do what you like.  Personally: my view is to keep with the SRM rule for the augmented limits, but in the case of chargen karma it's (iirc) never been allowable to initiate during chargen, and due to the nature of the priority chart it's game unbalancing to allow a magician to buy more spells than the priority pick. But, certain other karma activities should be reasonable, like bonding foci.

TL;DR:

Anything that increases an attribute above its natural, base score is considered an Augmentation. This includes cyberware, bioware, magic, adept powers, drugs, and anything else that adds to your attribute. In all cases, the limit of +4 remains in place unless a power or ability specifically says it breaks that cap.

All dice pool modifications for a skill test, with the exception of modifications already subject to the Augmented Attribute Limit, and specializations/expertise, count against the Augmented Skill Limit.

This is indeed formally the rule for organized play (SRM), and to the best of my knowledge it's the intent for what the CRB meant to say.  Also, as Michael Chandra pointed out, your Force 6 Focus is still worth more than a Force 4 focus because if you have -2 dice in penalties (wounds, sustaining spells, etc) that +6 dice goes further towards hitting your +4 max after including those penalties.

[Odsh]

Are these the SRM rules you speak about?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9uccsd1ygtbfyp/Missions%20SR6%20FAQ%20v1.2.pdf

So if I understand correctly, specifically for the Centering focus, since it adds dice to a pure Attribute test, the full rating of the focus applies in any case (according to the SRM rules).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes and yes.

The principle behind the augmented skill limit is that it only applies to bonus dice for skill tests. (again, the alternate reading it it applies to bonus skill RANKS).

Either reading: if a skill is not being invoked (2 attributes) then the augmented limit on skills is not relevant.

[Michael Chandra]

So, my assumption 'maybe the +4 cap applies even if it's a double-attribute test' was wrong, and it's quite simple:

SKILL TESTS: (Attribute with attribute bonuses, capped at Attribute+4) + Skill + Specialization/Expertise + (any remaining bonus + penalties, capped at +4) = dicepool.

This does mean that drain tests and defense tests are unlimited in bonus.

[Odsh]

I.m.o. it would have been much simpler and better balanced to say that the remaining bonus dice are counted against the sum of the augmentations of all the stats involved in the test.

For example:

Attribute 4(7)+ Skill 3(5)
Attribute has already an augmentation of +3, so +1 still possible
Skill has already and augmentation of +2, so +2 still possible
=> In total you could still add +3 remaining bonus dice

Same for two attributes.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I would have loved a blanket rule where no dice pool can ever be more than 18 dice.  Much, much simpler

[Xenon]

This does mean that drain tests and defense tests are unlimited in bonus.

I don't follow you.

The augmented attribute limit is not restricted to just skill tests.
It is an universal limit that prevent your attribute to reach more than +4 of its "natural rating".
This goes for AR calculations, DR calculations, attribute only tests, condition monitor calculations etc etc
But yes, also skill tests.

In an attribute only test (like a drain test) each individual attribute in the test is still restricted to a +4 augmented limit.

[Sir Ludwig]

SSDR,

I like the idea of a ceiling value, why "18"?

Regards,
SL

[Odsh]

This does mean that drain tests and defense tests are unlimited in bonus.

I don't follow you.

The augmented attribute limit is not restricted to just skill tests.
It is an universal limit that prevent your attribute to reach more than +4 of its "natural rating".
This goes for AR calculations, DR calculations, attribute only tests, condition monitor calculations etc etc
But yes, also skill tests.

In an attribute only test (like a drain test) each individual attribute in the test is still restricted to a +4 augmented limit.

You have two completely different mechanisms when you roll Attribute + Skill or Attribute + Attribute.
For the former, any "remaining bonus" to the dice pool is applied to the Skill's Augmentation and is limited by its maximum.
For the latter, no such restriction (Centering focus, Rigger Control Rig for defense tests).
I say just count any remaining bonus towards any of the two involved stats' augmentation until both are at their respective maximum. Same mechanism regardless of the kind of stats involved, be they Attributes of Skills: you have a total combined +8 of max augmentations that you cannot exceed with the "remaining bonus".