[Chopper]

Lookin to see if there is already a thread on SR6 Ritual Thresholds.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The search function can lead you to existing threads.

With regards to ritual thresholds... they're clearly given for each ritual (pgs. 144-146).  What information beyond that are you looking for?

[Shinobi Killfist]

They corrected a couple of them so they function for the player, I think ward and watcher. Most the rest only really work if you have a full ritual team of bad ass spellcasters. Which may have been the intent. But there is a thread I think here where I do the math for each ritual and expected results at various dice pool levels with and without edge, with and without teams.(also with and without edge), I'm too lazy to create a full math probability breakdown.  That was pre errata for ward and watcher.

[Xenon]

They corrected a couple of them so they function for the player, I think ward and watcher. Most the rest only really work if you have a full ritual team of bad ass spellcasters. Which may have been the intent. But there is a thread I think here where I do the math for each ritual and expected results at various dice pool levels with and without edge, with and without teams.(also with and without edge), I'm too lazy to create a full math probability breakdown.  That was pre errata for ward and watcher.

Link

[Shinobi Killfist]

Thanks, of note Ward now starts off at Base ritual leads magic rating+net hits, instead of just net hits. The threshold is still 6 which means you either need a team to make a basic ward or be tossing a solid die pool with edge, even a 12 die pool with edge has a solid chance to fail. Watcher did not change but I had read it wrong its not net hit hours its net hitx3 hours for how long they last.


This is one of those I've been playing too long complaints but the idea you need to spend reagents, and hours in a ritual circle to summon a watcher just does not work with me. I wish watcher would return to the conjuring skill.

Edit to add for ward, it still does set up a weird idea with a threshold of 6 that even a team of processionals will have a hard time creating a basic ward. In fact if a magic pro has a similar die pool to a normal pro in a field, 2-3 in a attribute 4ish in a skill, a ritual team of pros would fail with edge, they don;t succeed up to base die pool 9, so like accomplished pro?  Generally I will say when we do see magic practitioners in the setting they do toss more dice than janitor pro but it does seem weird to me that magic pro is assumed to have a higher stat and skill level than desk jokey pro etc.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

... to add for ward, it still does set up a weird idea with a threshold of 6 that even a team of processionals will have a hard time creating a basic ward. In fact if a magic pro has a similar die pool to a normal pro in a field, 2-3 in a attribute 4ish in a skill, a ritual team of pros would fail with edge, they don;t succeed up to base die pool 9, so like accomplished pro?  Generally I will say when we do see magic practitioners in the setting they do toss more dice than janitor pro but it does seem weird to me that magic pro is assumed to have a higher stat and skill level than desk jokey pro etc.

Meh.

I prefer to look at it as "NPCs follow different rules than PCs do".  Your NPC security professional(s)? they just erect whatever force wards the story needs.  Of course you don't even roll.  And since they CAN do it, and the rules as given make it hard to do, then "obviously" they use some other rules that are unavailable to PCs.  This approach is explicitly given, for example, in Street Wyrd on the new, uber-long duration alchemical preparations.

If a PLAYER wants to set up a ward, the rules are as-is.  They just have a harder time than the pros, apparently.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah I never liked NPCs use different rules.

[Chopper]

Shinobi Killfist: Concur, I do not like NPCs use different rules (it is a bit of a cop-out). It is a slippery slope to player mistrust. Doesn't work for SR Missions (IMHO). Doesn't work for Player vs Player games (which is varsity and I understand most GMs have not run). Doesn't pass the editing sniff test (Rituals could have been just left out of the book all together if it was bad guys do what ever they want). Thank you for your comments.

Xenon: Thanks for passing the link. I figured some else had trodden the rules interpretation ground. I tried the search bar with no success. :/

SSDR: Thanks for responding. Of course anything on the GM side can be hand waved, but it is a big difference in difficulty to create a Ward from 1-5th edition versus 6th, thus worth explanation. Have you heard any thoughts from the line developer on the topic per chance?

The genesis of the question that drove asking for the link below (notes to another experienced GM).

Is Ritual Spellcasting a simple test or an opposed test?

For a Ward? For a Circle of Healing?

Is the "Threshold" actually a simple test threshold per page CRB p35?
Later on the errata to have a defense test of Ritual "Threshold" x 2 acts like an opposed test p36?

Points of confusion:
Intent is unclear (different then all other editions).
Mechanic is unclear (which test is it? a new category of test?)
Formating is unclear (test is not written as a simple threshold Ward Sorcery + Magic (6))
Example is unclear (there is NONE, I thought maybe Slip Streams or Street Wyrd would address)

I submit it is an opposed test were Ritual Threshold x2 is used as the opposed roll. "Threshold" generates difficulty and drain. Not a new hybrid, simple/opposed test. A hybrid test would mean you need 10 hits (Simple Threshold 6 + 4 to get a major effect (e.g. Bear Doctor Society PC's setting up a Street Hospital for poor denizens of the Barrens)).

Important because the simplest balance to extremely advanced magic characters is simple wards (hand waving them as easy for NPCs and not for PC creates a further destabilizing magical arms race).

This is a good one to understand game creators intent, address in SR Mission errata with clarity, and address in future publications.

Verisimilitude matters as a discriminator for players that choose SR over other game systems.

Thanks for all the comments.

Cheers,
Chopper

Cut and Paste References:

Simple Tests p35

In a Simple test, you roll your dice pool, count your hits, and see if you meet or beat a threshold of hits established by the gamemaster. The gamemas- ter establishes the threshold based on the Threshold Guidelines table and suggestions and guidelines es- tablished within the rules. If the hits are equal to or greater than the threshold, the action succeeds; in some occasions, the number of net hits (the number of hits above the threshold) comes into play.

A Simple test is written like this:

Outdoors + Intuition (3) test

THRESHOLD

Opposed Tests p36

page36
In an Opposed test, another character, object, device, or entity is actively (or passively) resist- ing your efforts, so you must exceed their effort to succeed. In an Opposed test, two parties roll dice pools and compare the number of hits. The one with the most hits wins. Ties typically go to the aggressor, though this may change if net hits are required to make a given effect. The difference between the higher number of hits and the lower number of hits are the net hits in these tests, and they are often applied to the action in some way— for example, in combat, net hits from the attacker are added to the Damage Value of their attack.

An Opposed test is written like this:

Stealth + Agility vs. Perception + Intuition



Errata, Ward p145

(Anchored)

Threshold: 6

The ward is a basic ritual, taught to many ma- gicians. It creates a mana barrier (p. 161) with a rating equal to the net hits on the Sorcery test in Step 6 of the ritual. The ward may encompass a volume of up to fifty cubic meters times the sum of the participants’ Magic ratings.

This ritual takes four hours to complete. The ward lasts for a number of weeks equal to the net hits from the sealing step of the ritual. If the leader spends 6 Karma, the ward is permanent.



p. 143, Spend Reagents, paragraphs 1 and 2

Adjust the text as follows:

The leader must expend the number of reagents specified for the ritual, or an amount equal to the threshold if none are specified. The leader may ex- pend more reagents to reduce Drain when sealing the ritual (step 6). For every dram of pure reagents spent (after the initial offering), the Drain Value is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 2.

These reagents are used to seal the foundation for the ritual.



p. 144, Seal the Ritual, paragraph 2

Change the paragraph to read as follows:

After the spell effect goes off, each participant must deal with drain equal to the number of hits on a Ritual Threshold x 2 test (minimum 2) as de- scribed on page 131.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The act of ritual spellcasting is against a threshold, which makes it a simple test as described on pg. 35.  EDIT: Pedantically, it's a teamwork simple test, but yes.  TL;DR is you roll against the threshold, and nothing/noone rolls against you.

The (threshold x 2) dice pool comes in for the drain.  It is itself a simple test to establish the Drain DV, which then triggers a 3rd set of simple tests for the participants to soak that Drain damage.  In practice, there's basically no difference between 2 simple tests when the 1st test sets the threshold for the second... but yes pedantically the drain is a simple test of (ritual threshold) x 2 against an implicit threshold of (0), and then that # of net hits becomes the Drain DV that must be soaked by the ritual particpants on yet another, successive simple test against another implicit threshold of (0), where each net hit reduces the drain DV by 1.

Edit2:

So, a walkthru on setting up a Ward (pg. 145)

Step 1: Choose a leader:  Let's say we have a NPC wagemage using these rules, rather than some hand-wavey "NPC-only" rule that PCs can't access.  Our security contractor has Skill 4, Magic 6, and drain attribute 4, along with 2 employees who help them set up these wards. These mages are Skill 3, Magic 4, and Drain attribute 3 each.

Step 2: Choose the ritual: obviously, Ward.

Step 3: Set up the Foundation:  presumably these contractors have the permission of the building owner to be doing their shenanigans.  Said manager can ensure the building's employees leave the process alone.  Or, quite likely, the ritual will take place during an unmanned weekend or something.  The leader either sets up a portable lodge, or they expend a bunch of reagents and add it to their invoice.

Step 4: Spend Reagents: The team spends X reagents to ensure the Drain, once it comes, isn't too nasty.  And why not? They'll just add these resources to the service charge, too.

Step 5: Perform the Ritual:  The team spends 4 hours, per the Ward description, doing their drawing, chanting, dancing, or whatever is appropriate to their tradition.

Step 6: Seal the Ritual: The dice rolling part.  As a teamwork test, first the assistants go.  Their dice pools are 7, which should be enough to count on 2 hits each.  This adds +4 dice to the leader, whose pool was 10 before the help.  14 dice "probably" results in 4 hits maybe even 5, which means some Edge will probably have had to be spent to hit 6 hits total and be successful.  Assuming this is the case, the attempt is successful, but with 0 net hits. (6 hits vs threshold 6).  Next, each participant of the ritual must soak drain.  We find out how much that is by rolling 12 dice (6 threshold x2).  That's "probably" 4 hits, reduced by however many reagents they spent in step 4. Edge shouldn't be a factor since it was probably spent getting up to 6 hits in the first place.  But since 4-X<6, the damage is Stun, so really who cares how much Drain anyone takes.  But technically, it would be rolled against.  Thanks to errata, the force of the Ward is equal to Leader's Magic + Net hits, rather than just net hits.  So even at 0 net hits, the Ward is a Force 6 Mana Barrier in this case.

The leader then either is finished, or has the opportunity to spend 6 karma to make the ward permanent (per the Ward ritual rules).  Technically, since there were 0 net hits, they would probably HAVE to do this or else 0 weeks=0 time and the ward fails shortly after they succeed.  Alternately, the GM might allow 0=weeks to not truly be 0.0 time and have it last some days or even hours.  But moral of the story: try to get at least 1 net hit unless you've got the karma to burn. 

Or, maybe they just spend another 4 hours "trying again", hoping for 1 net hit this time.  (in which case, it DOES matter how much Drain they took on the first try)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah it is a simple test. The end result may be resisted and I do not think it has been clarified if they are resisting gross or net hits on the general rule level, I assume NET just because thats seems to be how the game works. But it does again create a weird situation and one since it is opposed by most often the players I can't handwave by NPCs are different. One of the most powerful ritual teams on the planet is gearing up to zap your street sam with a mana bolt, duh duh duh, the spell goes off, hey roll will +intuition oh you take 4 damage.... Its a bit of snark because yes they can upcast it to enough where maybe it will kill him. But taking 6 hits off the top makes it so a person with a decent resistance pool taking no extra precautions has a solid chance of surviving a full on team of top notch ritual casters throwing a upcast death spell at them. Doesn't quite have the same oomph of thereat I'd expect.

Some of the rituals the numbers work out thematically enough and or things like remote sensing clarify for them its total hits not net hits, where as circle of healing says net hits. So like circle of healing in hospitals which is a mainstay of the setting seems kind of unlikely now. Its possible, but you'd need quite the ritual team to pull it off to any significant effect. Maybe there is a permanent version out there for NPCs.But with it lasting days, that is one hell of a team to have on call to create maybe a few circles for a few extra dice of healing.  I guess you could go with its all a scam, the hospitals say they have  it but they really don't.

Anyway end result rituals are pushed more into the realm of NPCs as you need a team for most of them. Some by the numbers are hard enough to pull off that they don't seem to fit the thematic elements of the setting.  Some I question the need to put in the ritual system. But some do work out fairly well.

[MercilessMing]

Ritual Spellcasting adds very little to the game.  If it was left out of the CRB entirely, it probably would have been better to be honest.  Maybe it wouldn't come back at all, maybe it would come back leaner, or written in a format useful for GMs and players.  Rituals are a classic trope and useful plot devices in Shadowrun, it's a shame they're presented to the reader as "the other spellcasting" as if they'll ever do these in a run.

[Chopper]

First off. SSDR and SKF thanks. My questions are purely to provide clarity for an enhanced playing experience with an aim to increase the SR player base. I know you both have put in hours of effort online amongst these forums. If no one every says it, thanks for volunteering your time.

SSDR,

 The example is more of what we need in sourcebooks (IMHO) to increase our player base. I like your numbered breakdown.

:/ The framing of two simple tests in a row, seems more like an unintentional result of poor formatting than a purposeful implementation of mechanics.

I still remain curious what the line developers thinks or what the intent was, because a Circle of Healing (Threshold 7) in 2079 wasn’t that hard to pull off, but in 2080 it is only accomplished by elites (although not hard for a PC group to figure out). Opening an Astral Gateway via Ritual (Threshold 9) is literally off the charts (Slip Streams p140)(Threshold chart below).

Was the intent to make ritual sorcery that much harder in Sixth Edition? If so, then it begs why?

IMHO during my 30 years of GMing Shadowrun, Ritual Spellcasting has never been one of my big PC problem areas, although it has always been powerful. Was it concern over the 5th edition Circle of Healing used to boost remote teams (never saw someone pull that off in SR missions play, mostly because teams are too disorganized and time is artificially short). I remain grasping at Why?, because a typo or misunderstanding seems possible.

There are zero examples (I could find) for double threshold scenarios, but I will take a crack at it.

Use case: Bear Doctor Society Circle of Healing (Threshold 7). Elite Team gets 9 hits, nets 2 hits. They go to heal a party with a banged up street samurai (essence 2) thus Threshold is 5-2 = 3 and fellow Bear Doctor Shaman (essence 6) thus Threshold 5-6 = -1.

Do you read that as?
1. Samurai heals no damage (but gets +2 dice to a non magical healing check).
2. Shaman Heals 3 boxes of damage (and gets a +2 a follow on non-magical healing check)

Bear Doctors have to compete with Aztechnology New Magic Pill Hocus Pocus by reducing the cost of healing per person.

SKF,

Agree I am not a huge fan of the errata that makes rituals cost reagents game balance wise, but at least I can picture the consumption paints, dyes, incense, chalk infused with wending dung, and the like as consumables. Totally makes watchers even less useful compared to spirits.

Thanks again for what you both do for the game.

MM,

I have seen PCs use ritual sorcery in a way the fits the game in previous editions, but as you said, rarely. The CRB could have saved some pages and provided additional examples in other grey areas. Easily could have been playtested and then revealed in Street Wyrd. Ritual Spellcasting does fit the mold of a Shaman that rallies people together vice a lone Mercenary Combat Mage. Certainly the Great Ghost Dance is plot device, but also the inherent shift in the power dynamic between oppressor and oppressed, ala Bear Doctor Society healing those they can in the Barrens.

Cheers,
Chopper

THRESHOLD GUIDELINES CRBp35
1. Simple task, only slightly more difficult than walk- ing and talking. Shooting at a nearby building. 

2. More complex, but still in the range of normal ex- perience. A task an average person pulls of regularly. Shooting at a nearby building while running. 

3. Normal starting point for Simple tests. Complicated enough to require skill. Shadowrunners are expected to be more competent than normal people, which is why game thresholds are based here. Shooting a window out of a nearby building. 

4. More difficult, impressive enough to accomplish. 
Shooting an enemy in the window of a nearby building. 

5. Tricky, the sort of thing only accomplished by those who have worked on their skills. Shooting an enemy in the window of a nearby buiding at minimum range. 

6. Elite-level accomplishment, something that few in the world could pull off with any degree of regular- ity. Shooting an enemy in the window of a building at far range. 

7. Standing out among the elite, demonstrating very rare ability. Shooting an enemy in the window of a building at far range while running. 


Notes: buying hits no edge
Norm Level: Sorcery (Ritual) 4(6) + Magic 6 = 12 + 6 (Teamwork two 12 dice pools) = 18 (4 bought hits)
PC Level: Sorcery (Ritual) 6( + Magic 6( = 16 + 8 (Teamwork two 16 dice pools) = 24 (8 bought hits)
Elite Level: Sorcery (Ritual) 7(10) + Magic 6(9) = 19 + 9 (Teamwork three 12 dice pools) = 28 (9 bought hits)

9-10 hits is almost certainly physical drain (hits on seal test > magic). Drain = Ritual Threshold x 7 = 14 likely 3 - 3 (for reagents) = min 2 drain. Or bad day 9 hits -3 = 6 physical drain. 500nuyen
 
PC to PC Elite level, requires Aptitude (at gen) and 23 karma (pf3 = 18kp, expertise 5kp)

New Physical Adept (Aid Sorcery) batteries quickly tip the scales of getting its another +4 dice.

Thulsa Doom:
Yes! You know what it is don't you boy. Shall I tell you? It's the least I can do. Steel isn't strong boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; that beautiful girl. Come to me my child... That is strength boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! Such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe. Crucify him!

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Thanks for the kind words, Chopper.  It's all a labor of love, much like GMing is!

A couple of thoughts:

I didn't partake in 6e playtesting (and even as a member of the errata team, we were just as surprised as everyone else that the new edition was coming) so I can't really speak with authority on the intent behind threshold difficulty.  It may not have been well playtested.  Then again, maybe it was and the threshold values as given are completely deliberate.  I wouldn't have a way to discern the difference.

However: my gut instinct is that the writers assume the casters are going to be making use of Edge, and inflated those thresholds accordingly.  I don't KNOW that to be the case, though.  But, if you presume Edge expenditure (as I did in my walk-thru example upthread) I don't think meeting the thresholds with some net hits to spare is all that implausible. Particularly so for optimized characters. Ritual Spellcasting Foci are a big help, and probably should be presumed as mandatory if you're going to be doing rituals (which, in fairness, I neglected to account for in my ward walkthru upthread.  Shouldn't be hard to pump your dicepool up by +4, just from having an appropriate Focus).  If you had thresholds in the 3-4 range, as the threshold guidelines might have otherwise suggested... an expenditure of Edge ends up blowing the Ritual's potency up out of proportion to spending that same edge on an action that is one-and-done.  So, for example, if your Circle of Healing is going to last for days, why wouldn't you blow your Edge to maximize the result?  Tuning the threshold to assume for Edge makes Edge less likely to get an obnoxious result... at cost of making you almost HAVE to spend Edge.

Use case: Bear Doctor Society Circle of Healing (Threshold 7). Elite Team gets 9 hits, nets 2 hits. They go to heal a party with a banged up street samurai (essence 2) thus Threshold is 5-2 = 3 and fellow Bear Doctor Shaman (essence 6) thus Threshold 5-6 = -1.

Do you read that as?
1. Samurai heals no damage (but gets +2 dice to a non magical healing check).
2. Shaman Heals 3 boxes of damage (and gets a +2 a follow on non-magical healing check)

3. Neither of the above.  A circle of healing sets the healing spell at a number of NET HITS equal to the net hits on the ritual.  So if you're trying to heal that samurai, it literally does not matter what his essence is.  The spell automatically has X net hits no matter what the sammie's essence derived threshold was, where X=Circle of Healing's net hits..  So the samurai is healed 2 boxes in your example. (along with the +2 dice on healing checks). 
3a. Someone with 6 essence (such as the Shaman) would also have 2 net hits = 2 boxes of healing, because note that the rule about a "bonus hit" on healing someone with 6 essence technically is only said to apply to first aid.  RAI is probably such that it should apply to ALL healing where threshold=(5-Essence), but even then it's a bonus hit, not a bonus NET HIT. 2 net hits means 2 net hits.

On the topic of Watchers:
I'm not a big fan of them being rituals either, but that ship already sailed before 6e.  They were rituals in 5e, and off the top of my head I don't recall if they were rituals in 4e but at this point it really doesn't matter.

As a ritual: watchers are kind of neat in that an aspected sorcerer can get a ghetto spirit.  it sucks, but it's better than no spirit at all! 

As compared to 6e spirits: They blow chunks, granted.  Since you can have more than one spirit summoned simultaneously in 6e, there's really next to no mechanical advantage at all to a Watcher as compared to a Force 2 (or really even F1) spirit.  Anything you'd task a Watcher to do, a wimpy little spirit can do just as well or better, and it doesn't take you an hour to get it, and it lasts longer!  But, that does have a kind of a flipside.  You can roll with 3 spirits at 100% of your Magic attribute (or 2 spirits at 150% each) and save Watchers for the wimpy drek you might ask a spirit to do, without costing anything against your total Spirit Force allowance or costing any services from your big beat-sticks. Furthermore, since watchers are technically NOT spirits, they're not subject to the "spirits can never gain or spend Edge" rule.  Might be some really niche ways to exploit that minor advantage... at minimum every time it gains 2 edge, it can spend those edge to give you 1.

[Typhus]

Thanks for the Ward walkthrough SSRD.  Helpful to understand.

Let's assume a F6 Mana Barrier is created after all that, as described.  How good is that?

Obviously it's an impediment to astral travelers who would otherwise flit right through.  What I'm really wondering is how hard is that to knock down, realistically.  If I'm an astral specialist, how easily can I likely breach that Ward?  What's my best approach to smash through that?