[Gmanjkd]

Hello, Im still very new to SR, with SR6 being my 1st dive into the game.  Everyone in the community has been very helpful
 and welcoming.  Thank you for that, you all have been great.  BUT as far as SR6 is concerned im REALLY STRUGGLING to like it.
  So far i have purchased more tha I have red but i have read the starter set, core book, Cutting black, 30 nights, Slip Streams,
Freeing Seattle, Assassins Night, Kechibi Code, and the Neo Anarchist Street-Pedia.  The more I read....the less i like the game.
 I like the streamlined skill list, I like the action economy, i like the Decking, I like the art. 

Im really having a difficult time with the books/fiction and TONE.
 When i look at the SR art and what is presented to the new player/purchaser I see Bladerunner + Magic
BUT the fiction and sourcebooks really feel like what im getting is more D&D + Guns. 
Its not gritty cyberpunk genre but more high fantasy Captain Planet...

As a new player/gm it feels like the books have been mislabeled. 
 EXAMPLE - 30 nights and Assassins Night are Labeled "Campaign Books".  hmmm,  Campaigns are a group of linked adventures. 
Adventures are a defined scenario  with scenes, timelines, a plot, characters, enemies "Maps" if the location warrants one etc.
 Campaigns are Harlequin, Brainscan, Horror on the Orient Express, The Enemy Within.   
In order for 30 Nights to qualify as a Campaign it must 1st have adventures.... I dont see that it has "defined" adventures
and therefore cant qualify as a campaign book... As a newb to SR when i see Campaign Book listed on the cover
 Im expecting a "Campaign" as outlined above.....How would I as a newb expect anything else.
 I propose that SR Campaign Books would be better served with the Title Changed to Plot Sourcebook as they do in
fact have Plot Seeds in abundance and are also a Sourcebook.  They would EXCEL at being Plot Sourcebooks and newbs would have
a much better understanding of what they are investing their time and money into,

Which brings me to Plot Sourcebooks...I think these would be better titled as Immersive Fiction...
they are often a fun read (looking at you Cutting Black) but as a newb i dont find them useful as a play aide.

So....who is SR6 for?   As a newb, even after reading all of these books im constantly lost with what is going on in the world. Instead of presenting a baseline of a setting and then expanding off of that opposite has been true. None of the books stay in the same location long enough for a newb to get their base...their foundation.
  SO MANY acronyms with no apparent reference as to what they mean.
 Tons of references to old plotlines stretching multiple editions and NPCs that have comic book level depth and history....IM LOST.
 Reading more and more of the books is answering few questions and only presenting new questions.   

The fiction suggests that SR6 is written for long term fans BUT it appears that the long term fans are less excited about
the new edition. In addition the TONE is so different from what my research of  older editions would suggest that I can
understand why people often state that SR6 is more about magic and less about Machine/cypberpunk/Bladerunner.

 I can see how that would create a bipolar identity in SR6's tone.
 Presentation and Genre suggest Bladerunner + Magic but execution is D&D/High Fantasy + Guns.

The mechanics also appear to be bipolar.  Streamlined mechanics for newbs.  Great!.  Action economy?  CHECK
Initiative?  Check. Decking?  BIG CHECK!    Rigging?  I have not used these rules but they seam odd and different than the
other rules...how about EDGE?  The more I dig into EDGE i really really dislike it.  To be fair i dislike mechanics in ANY
game that involve tracking and spending a fluctuating resource.  Im looking at you Advantage in WFRP 4e.  Expendable resources like this are a time consuming
mechanic that constantly slows down the game with overcomplicated choices. Not choice in character build but a giant menu
to be utilized in the middle of the part of the game that should be the most exciting and fast paced (CONFLICT) . When you present players OF ANY GAME
a tone of options like a menu it creates indecisiveness and decision paralysis. Add this to the already extensive list of minor and
Major actions and just WOW.  Please keep in mind im not complaining about the Minor and Major actions as they appear to be vital
to the SR experience.

So in summary who is SR6 for?  The lore suggests long term players as it is too deep for newbs but also does not retain the
tone of prior editions...The Book labels are very obtuse and are not at all what I would expect to get when purchasing books.
I assume long term players are used to these title types but again im a newb. 
The mechanics have been streamlined (skill list, action economy, initiative, Decking clearly for the newb and that is appreciated)
but EDGE is so cumbersome, not fun, clunky and time consuming filled with to many options that create decision paralysis
and slow down the game (not even considering the additional options listed in Firing Squad and Double Clutch)
 I have 11 books for SR6 and for me the only one that has been useful (read FANTASTIC) is the Neo Anarchist Street Pedia....
its almost required reading to even begin to understand the other books.

I hope I dont come across as harsh as I dont mean to. Im just really struggling as a newb with SR6.  I keep thinking that if i
just read more books then something will click and ill get it....but the opposite appears to be true.  The more time and money I
spend just makes it worse.

Thanks so much for letting me rabble.  Its good to get your thoughts out sometimes so that you can better understand your own thoughts.

I invite any corrections to my above thoughts.
Thanks all, this community has been great and I appreciate your incites and experience.

[Michael Chandra]

I have never let the art or fictions impact my games. Some people argue content is too black trenchcoat, some argue content is too pink mohawk. You still got all the space you need to do whatever you want. You can do a campaign in 30 Nights just fine, but you're hyperfocusing on your own interpretations on how the game is supposed to be, and digging into that. You complain Edge is a trackable spendable resource, while not focusing on how it means you're not tracking constant modifiers instead. You get stuck on your Edge options, but most don't matter. So it really sounds to be as if you're your own worst enemy here, stuck with a specific way of how you want things to go, and digging in and only making things worse for yourself.

If you go in with the interpretation of 'this MUST have fixed campaign adventures that follow criteria X', and not do your research first on how they decided to structure the thing, then you're only going to get disappointed. If you go in knowing that 30 Nights is quick explanations without super details, you don't get disappointed from the very first sight. I know people who knew what 30 Nights was like, got it, used about a third of it in their campaign, and had a blast.

Honestly, I think your biggest problem is that apparently Sixth Edition simply isn't for you. Because it has deliberately loosened up a lot of things, leaving a lot of leeway to the GM, while you want a fixed format. With a rulebook that repeatedly says 'details are up to the GM', and 'these are guidelines, do whatever fits your campaign best', if that's not what you want then it was never the right edition for you.

As for your opinions on Edge, I must admit that in all the demo games, short campaigns, and playtests I have played and GMd, choice paralysis on Edge was never an obstruction. And with newbies that were lost on the actions, I simply went 'these are some of the most useful options for you' and they learned real quick.

[MercilessMing]

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time with it.  Regarding the tone, yeah that's all fair.  Catalyst aren't regarded as the most talented developers this game has had.  Shadowrun isn't even the game they spend the most development money and effort on.  The line developer Jason Hardy is the only Catalyst employee that works on the game afaik.  Everyone else are freelancers and volunteers.  So IMO they have problems that start at the top.  With the caveat that I'm an outsider just spitballing.  My criticism of the adventures this edition is that the job framework has been used as a flimsy excuse to get the team onto the plot track where the real story can advance instead of being more integrated into the story.  Johnsons come and go, there's never an issue at payout time, the motives of those involved rarely matter, etc.


Who is SR 6 for?  Well it is definitely aimed at me, someone who played 20 years ago and looking to play again.  I didn't need a strong introduction to the world and game concepts, and this edition definitely doesn't have those.  I was also looking for something near the complexity of D&D5, which SR6 tries to do (doesn't get there unfortunately).  But it's more digestible than 5th and now that I'm accustomed to 6th, I look at 5th edition rules and just think whyyyyy are there so many needlessly fiddly rules?

When it comes to the evolving world plot, thankfully I mostly ignore that stuff.  I skim the highlights of the world news, and when it comes to books like Slip Streams with those NPCs with comic book level history, I read it through the lens of "do I want this in my game or not" and if the answer is no, they may as well not exist. 
My table's favorite run I ever GM'd for them in the last couple years wasn't anything published, it didn't have any NPCs from the books, it was just a corp executive looking for his missing daughter that I made up, it has a good twist, hard choices that not everyone will agree on, and a good wow moment.  Point being that it's not uncommon for tables to go their own way and just use the published stuff as inspiration.  If you want Bladerunner + magic, find people that will treat the game that way.

[Gmanjkd]

Thanks for replying Michael, 

I appreciate your taking the time to read my post.

I agree that I may and probably am my own worst enemy where this is considered.  I have a strongly defined view of what appeals to me about Shadowrun.  Bladerunner + Magic sounds amazing.  D&D+Guns sounds abysmal.  Nothing is going to change what you or I find appealing about a game.  If you expecting to play Battletech and sit down at my table and I put My Little Pony on the table you are probably going to be confused and disappointed.

With that said I am going to push back a bit.  I assume you did not mean for your comments to come across condescending so I will give you the benefit of the doubt as its very difficult to convey tone via text.

As far as my interpretation of the "Campaign Books" there is a 40+ year legacy of what has already been established as a
"Campaign" when a product says on the cover it is a "Campaign" it is using that label to convey what it is as a product. Thats the point of the advertised label.   It would be fair to say that anyone with prior rpg experience that is not SR would expect something different than what is contained within the campaign books.  Even SR has prior examples of Campaigns meeting the standard definition of campaigns.  Since you are clearly experienced in the SR world i can see that you would expect exactly what was included in the "campaign" books but from the outside coming in for the first time its a culture shock to say the least.

In regard to "not do your research first on how they decided to structure the thing" I have purchased and read 11 SR6 books in less than 5 weeks.  How much more research would you  recommend that I do before i understand what I am buying?  Where would you recommend that I do my research so that I am better informed before i spend additional money or time reading SR6 books?  Where would I have found that the "Campaign" books for SR6 are a list of plot points and not traditional campaigns as presented in most other games going back to 1974?   Again...the established lexicon of "Campaign" across 40 years and countless rpgs would be at odds with the structure that SR6 presents its "campaigns"

In regard to loosening up things for the GM leaving a lot of leeway to the GM... I would say that my primary experience in RPG's as a GM are AD&D, Call of Cthulhu 5th and 7th edition and WFRP 1,2,3 and 4th ed.   AD&D and COC explicitly require the DM/GM/Keeper to shoot from the hip and make things up on the fly.  Im afraid that I misrepresented myself putting you in a position that you misinterpreted my expectations.  I would not say that I am looking for a fixed format but a strong foundation to build off of.  I have yet to see that in SR6.  If I am wrong please point me in the right direction.

In regard to Edge...I have not used it a lot in real world games.  I did not mean to hit a HOT button with this inclusion in my prior post.  If you contributed to the creation of Edge then im sure its fantastic with experience.  Perhaps with experience I will grow to love it and it will be great.  Perhaps this will be the 1st game in my history that has successfully created a menu of items to spend a fluctuating resource on and do it smoothly.  I certainly hope so.

[Gmanjkd]

@MercilessMing  Thanks for your reply.  That is very helpful.  I think what im going to have to do is take a step back....Im getting a bit saucy on this subject after spending so much TIME and $$ on these books over the last 5 weeks.  I think im going to have to take a step back..... Wait for a Seattle Sourcebook so that I can get a strong foundation to start from and then write my own material for the players after that.

It has to be rough if Jason is doing this predominantly by himself.  If thats the case then I wouldn't want to write full length adventures either...I would probably focus more on plot points instead as well. 

Are there any books beyond the Street Pedia that you would recommend that I could read to get a strong foundation for the Shadowrun Setting?   There is just SOOOO MUCH information spread all across the world.

[Reaver]

You're not the only one who is having an issue.

****

I had a nice little novel typed out there, but I have instead deleted it, because I know what I had to say would not be well received.

So instead, lets just say this:

Based on what you are saying (And BELIEVE ME, I hear you!) you are in the same boat as a small, silent majority (that is growing), that is not happy with everything we are seeing happening in our hobby, across MULTIPLE platforms and systems. I am sorry to say to you probably will not be well served by the current offerings of products being produced in any system...

So instead I will direct you to the OSR market, and past edition releases. These products may be more to your liking in Tone and Flavor, I know that they have been for my table. They may not be "up to date" for the current in universe Lore, But as any experienced GM can tell you: "Lore never survives contact with the Player characters"... Besides all the fun in an TTRGP is the havoc that 8 friends and a flat of beer can cause with a little imagination and a few dice

[taranion]

The way information is presented in Shadowrun is very peculiar - at least compared to other RPGs. Instead of giving a GM hard facts and solid background information, you get a biased dossier with added Shadowtalk, which somethings sheds a different light on the dossier you just read. This way it is up to the GM, to decide what is really at his table. This is a matter of taste. Most folks I asked are used to that presentation and like it, but I don't. I prefer a predefined truth laid out in the book and helpful hints how to let players find out those truth during play.

And I am with you regarding campaign books. Especially when I read the word "Campaign", I expect a well layout plot or a well described sandbox - something that relieves my from the burden of needing to spend my limited free time in writing the campaign myself. But that's not what I get

There are adventure modules that deliver what I expect - the Missions. They come with scenes, floor plans, NPCs and such, but they are rather short.

[MercilessMing]

The way information is presented in Shadowrun is very peculiar - at least compared to other RPGs. Instead of giving a GM hard facts and solid background information, you get a biased dossier with added Shadowtalk, which somethings sheds a different light on the dossier you just read. This way it is up to the GM, to decide what is really at his table. This is a matter of taste. Most folks I asked are used to that presentation and like it, but I don't. I prefer a predefined truth laid out in the book and helpful hints how to let players find out those truth during play.

Same.  Shadowrun's always had that in its DNA, but Catalyst leans into it.  The biases spark the imagination, and let the players play how they want, which may be the best players can hope from Catalyst.  They don't develop Shadowrun in a traditional RPG way.  It's very fiction-styled, which is why the campaign books need so much work from the GM and why they have a reputation for poorly organized and edited rulebooks.  They could do with more technical writing.

And I am with you regarding campaign books. Especially when I read the word "Campaign", I expect a well layout plot or a well described sandbox - something that relieves my from the burden of needing to spend my limited free time in writing the campaign myself. But that's not what I get

There are adventure modules that deliver what I expect - the Missions. They come with scenes, floor plans, NPCs and such, but they are rather short.

I haven't ever really used the Missions, but it's nice to hear there is some corner of Shadowrun development focused on the play experience! 

[SITZKRIEG]

@MercilessMing  Thanks for your reply.  That is very helpful.  I think what im going to have to do is take a step back....Im getting a bit saucy on this subject after spending so much TIME and $$ on these books over the last 5 weeks.  I think im going to have to take a step back.....

Taking a step back is probably a good idea especially since you've invested so much time and money... but know that you're NOT alone in expressing concern about the direction the RPG mechanics took in 6e.  I wanted an easier barrier of entry edition but 6e wasn't for me either.  I ended up choosing Anarchy which is also quite flawed but at least "fixing" it to my liking is easier in a rules lite system (especially when whole sections are just rules missing instead).  I'd say wait for the upcoming Runner's companion advanced style book as those typically have variant ways of playing based on prior edition precedent.

[wraith]

You're not the only one who is having an issue.

****

I had a nice little novel typed out there, but I have instead deleted it, because I know what I had to say would not be well received.

So instead, lets just say this:

Based on what you are saying (And BELIEVE ME, I hear you!) you are in the same boat as a small, silent majority (that is growing), that is not happy with everything we are seeing happening in our hobby, across MULTIPLE platforms and systems. I am sorry to say to you probably will not be well served by the current offerings of products being produced in any system...

So instead I will direct you to the OSR market, and past edition releases. These products may be more to your liking in Tone and Flavor, I know that they have been for my table. They may not be "up to date" for the current in universe Lore, But as any experienced GM can tell you: "Lore never survives contact with the Player characters"... Besides all the fun in an TTRGP is the havoc that 8 friends and a flat of beer can cause with a little imagination and a few dice

It's weird to realize I've been pointing out the same issues for 10 years at this point, from the crash and burn of the 'Year of Shadowrun'.  :|

That said, there's a number of options out there.  The old editions are still as playable as ever (and I'd absolutely play 3e or 20A before 6e), and there are more modernly designed games that can do the SR setting justice like The Sprawl (which is built on the extremely popular Apocalypse World engine) or the Blades in the Dark hack Runners in the Shadows.  I've also heard tell that the German translated version of the books is in a much better state if you read that language, because Pegasus does extensive cleanup as part of the translation.

[Xenon]

SR6 had great potential at being the best edition for a new player to pick up (as it streamline a lot of older concepts, got rid of a lot of situational modifiers, merged many effects into status effects that was all gathered to one location of the book, got rid of limits, got rid of matrix marks and reintroduced matrix networks run from physical hardware, simplified initiative score bookkeeping, simplified many small and perhaps pointless but rather time-consuming rules such as uncompensated recoil, progressive recoil, adjusted armor rating, variable soak, etc), but unfortunately with the execution it fail short on a few other accounts.

- It skip out on several clarifying examples and [redundant] clarifying rules. The intent was probably to make the book easier to read. Less pages etc. But instead it causes confusion and ambiguity among new players that doesn't have experience from previous editions.

- It skip out on clarifying GM sections and lore. The intent was probably again to make the book easier to read. Less pages etc. But instead this caused confusion for new players that are perhaps not aware of all the rich backstory that exists in the world of Shadowrun from earlier editons.

- Many people think they pushed the whole armor doesn't directly reduce damage taken, instead it increase your chance to gain a tactical advantage when getting attacked and strength doesn't directly increase melee damage done, instead it increase your chance to gain a tactical advantage when attacking with melee - a bit too far.

- There are also some concepts that was tricky to grasp in previous edition that was just copy pasta over to this edition. The whole spirit using materialization gaining resistance to natural weapons which give them hardened armor against normal attacks (technically correct and was the same thing in older edition, but you still need to flip a lot of pages before you come to this realization... must be a way to simplify this so new players can understand how it is all connected the first time they introduce a spirit to their game). Power focus and that it only act as a positive dice pool modifier to tests involving spellcasting and other tests where magic is involved (its technically correct, but a lot of people still think it straight up enhance your magic rating). Bit of lost opportunity there.


The consensus seem to be that you should perhaps avoid 1st, 2nd and the original 4th edition (as the 20th anniversary of 4th edition have far better editing), but beyond that they are all more or less equally hard for beginners to start out with:

* 3rd edition have a cool setting.
* 4th edition have good editing.
* 5th edition is most popular.
* 6th edition have less pages.

[EltonJ]

I never got SR6, instead I run SR4A.  Which I think is a vastly superior game and very player friendly.  I play in an Anarchy game where I am the group's mage, and that's been a little more fun.  But if you want to start SR, take a look at the first edition of the game.  That's where I started, and that is more like Bladerunner + Magic (I got the Second Edition of the game, which is a fun read).

The character generation system is different -> A priority system is introduced.  In which you can choose by priority what you can start with.  However, SR4A does character generation with Build Points.  Anarchy presents a different approach.

[Greysword]

While this is an old thread, it is an excellent point.

Gman, you are absolutely correct, and I'm sorry you made such a large fiscal investment before realizing how unfriendly this game and publisher is for curious gamers.  SR6 is definitely not for new players to the system (and not for many seasoned Shadowrunners), which is a shame, since Shadowrun desperately needs them.  It is important to note that many of the rules and game books are written by freelance writers, many of which have been playing the game for decades.  This is why much is referencing past lore and characters (and rules).  Also, Hardy seems to desire to be a novelist, more so than a game designer, thus much of the game stuff is encapsulated into novels and in story form.

The #1 thing Shadowrun has going for it in the sea of roleplaying games is the lore.  As such, one would think CGL would have a better way to condense and consolidate what is happening in the Sixth World (and past events).  To this end, there are some great podcasts by Opti and some great resources on the Shadowrun Reddit page that outlines much of the history and rules into a manageable format.  Another good resource is the German site Shadowhelix, which you can have Google translate for you.

As for the rules, yes, SR6 is a mess, as are all of the other systems that are released by this "company".  CGL did quite a bot to alienate some of their most staunch supporters for this edition, too.  They have a history of treating their talent and fans poorly, it seems. 

Honestly if I were talking to a new group that was interested in playing Shadowrun, I would probably suggest Fifth edition.  The system is (relatively) complete (since it is done printing), and the community has a TON of resources to help new groups get started.  While there are a lot of fiddly rules, the community can tell you what to ignore and what to focus upon as you start, AND there are a lot of community made tools, handouts, flowcharts, etc for you and your group to use.  For instance, Chummer5a is the definitive (and Free!) character creation tool, which uses Java to run (the developers of Chummer decided not to make one for 6e, which says something about 6e).  Soem noteworthy resources for 5e:

1) Cummer5a: https://github.com/chummer5a/chummer5a

2) Character creation wiki: http://adragon202.no-ip.org/Shadowrun/index.php/Main_Page

3) Complex Action outlines ALL of the rules in simple & fun YouTube videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/ComplexAction?app=desktop

Also, sometimes BundleofHolding will have Shadowrun books for their fund raiser, so keep an eye out and get all of them for an edition!

Sorry to hear that SR6 isn't going well, and I will add to the sentiment that you are not alone! I would recommend looking at an older version that is fully baked (and has community support, both current and additional free items).  Another option is to skip Shadowrun and just get Cyberpunk Red, which is an older game than Shadowrun in this genre.

Good luck and have fun (I hope)!

 - Chris
 

P.S.  I'm basically a new person to Shadowrun, too.  Our group played a single adventure a couple of summers ago, when I needed a break from GMing Champions, and I enjoyed the setting and crunch of the rules!  Luckily, we had a seasoned GM, knowledgeable in the lore and mechanics of Shadowrun.  Unfortunately, the others in the group didn't want to mess with the game afterwards, which is too bad.  Thus, like you, I bought a bunch of SR5 books quickly and got immersed in it.  While editing is terrible, having a well versed community and community created support material helps a lot!  When I got SR6, to try and get a fresh start, I found the first printing abysmal and stopped buying more SR6 books.  I want to like the game, but CGL makes it soooo hard!!!

[sirjolt]

2E was the first edition I owned but didn't get to play until late 3E.  4E was my big initial foray into the game.  I enjoyed it, but thought it was a touch fiddly.  There seemed to be far too many modifiers to keep track of.  5E i really disliked.  To me, it added complexity for little to no benefit.  I also didn't like the way it felt like 'Magicrun' instead of 'Shadowrun'.  Conceptually, I liked the ideas for SR6.  Edge felt more meaningful, the bloated lists of skills and modifiers were gone, etc.  The problem is that the language is not very tight...at all.  I had to read many sections multiple times and ask questions on forums, Discord, Facebook groups, etc before I could parse what they were trying to say.  Simplifying a game doesn't help much if nobody can understand what you're saying.  Once I did get to the point where I understood what was going on, I've found SR6 to go quicker and smoother than any previous edition.

[Typhus]

I agree that 6E didn't go simple enough.  Mechanically, I want something that's less complex than 6E but more robust than Anarchy as my ideal.  I've reached the point of feeling like this is a game that needs a full reboot in some way.  A back-to-basics version that can hone its focus on the core aspects of shadowrunning and leave the fringe and bloat for sourcebooks and expansions.  Something that can draw in new players as it's primary objective, using a simple but expandable system (no gimmicks like Limits, Edge points, Amps, etc.) and a format that really sets up the GM to create solid basic missions.  Then reintroduce all the other historical stuff and advanced rules options in manageable chunks that focus on how to immerse the players to the content.  Like include a mission or six in each supplement so the GM has a way to introduce the players with the content, rather than just lore dumps and/or gear stats.  Don't just leave it to the GM to figure out.

I just feel that something to reinvent or readdress this game/setting is needed.  While old school players may be able to keep up with the 6 editions of lore, it's all just too much to expect someone walking in new to grab ahold of, either as a GM or player.  Especially these days.  While some can, it limits your audience to those who can. 

SR6 does really feel like it was made for people who already knew the game and the world, so explanations could be handwaved, and cramming complex ideas like Enchanting, Alchemy, Initiation, and Technomancers into the same 300 page count as everything else seemed fine because we all knew what it meant anyway.  It was more of a rules conversion book than a welcome to Shadowrun book in how it turned out. 

And yes, of course 2050 conversion content does exist, but that's also a band-aid answer.  If that was going to solve something, it would have already.  The core problem remains, and it's driving people to other systems to meet the interest.  Something that actively helps people find that love for the first time would be great to see.  The game deserves it.