[Sichr]

@Kontact: Got it..

@Trigvi: Still, it is intentional use of the skill (oh, a poetic coincidence), normaly people are able to live in their neighborhood, visit bars, finding partners and even raise a children without etiquette, seducing and instruction skill...

[Triggvi]

Real people have some social skills. they don't have the skills negotiate a high level deal, but buy a drink and know to tip the bartender. (default or level 1 depending)

It is not unreasonable to have a character make an etiquette role to see what kind of impression he makes in a situation. I would not make a character roll sitting at his favorite hang out, but sitting in strange bar in a social level he is not familiar with, you bet.

Social rolls are not not just action, but reaction to the character.

[Sichr]

Well, I understand all the benefits that you can gain from social skills. I just think that it is not necessary to have them to accomplish the daily routine. Even Uncouth character is viable...Im sure we know IRL examples from our surroundings. We have specialists for this skill set in our teams, I think..And uncouth hacker or assasin is not something I cannot imagine.

[Triggvi]

Just because a character is uncouth doesn't mean he has no social graces, he has a problem makes him less socially acceptable. The socially inept do not have any social graces.

My only point in all this is that making a well rounded character should include social skills, even if they are low level. Just because a character has the influence group at one doesn't make him a face, not by a long shot.

Having the street sam that knows that walking into a yakuza hangout and whipping out and peeing on the floor is not very endearing. If he is going to piss them off, it should be because he wants too.

I am not mandating social skills, but saying they are a good idea.

[Sichr]

Understood. Well, not having this skills, or become Uncouth, is more the Roleplay than a Tactical choice...

[Triggvi]

Understood. Well, not having this skills, or become Uncouth, is more the Roleplay than a Tactical choice...

When it comes right down to it, Shadowrun is suppose to be role-playing game. A spec ops type role-playing, but role-playing game none the less.

[Sichr]

Yoeah. I wander about that Karma built system,, somebody said before thet it allows more universal built then BP build..well I didnt tried that yet...

[Operator]

For Karmagen, the RC has errata which has not yet made it to the English printing.

p.41   Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”

p.42   Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”

p.42   Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”

p.43   Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”

Source: RPG.net, [Shadowrun 4e] Comparing Karmagen and BP

[Glyph]

Ten-Hex brought it up earlier, but a lot of people seem to use the term "min-max" inappropriately.  Min-maxing is the art of maximizing your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages.  A true min-maxer would never take the Uncouth quality.  He would take a Charisma of 2 and the influence skill group at 1, to be functional in basic social interactions.  The only people taking uncouth would be naive new players, munchkins who play the game like a first-person shooter, and role-players who are genuinely interested in playing someone who has problems with social interactions.


On Karmagen: 
It tends to create weaker awakened characters (which might be a plus for GMs who feel they are too powerful).  Special Attributes in karmagen fall under the maximum allowable points allocation (in other words, a human can only spend 375 points on all Attributes, including Edge and Magic or Resonance).  Also, the limit of one maxed-out Attribute includes the special Attributes in karmagen.  So for example, a human couldn't have a Willpower of 6 and Magic of 6.

It flounders with Metatypes at the end of high Attributes for things like trolls, and is not really suitable for things like AI's, free spirits, or infected.

Where it shines is dice pools.  Higher skills and Attributes increase at an exponential rate, instead of a flat one, making high dice pools more expensive.  This is a good thing, because high dice pools are worth more.  Karmagen does not force weaker characters.  You can still make an optimized character, and will generally come out ahead, with a few extra points for skills or contacts.  But generalists suddenly become more viable.  In build points, if you make someone with average Attributes and skills, you've simply spread yourself too thin.  In karmagen, you will find that this makes your character cheap, cost-wise, letting you spread out and get lots of those low-rated skills.  A specialist converted back to build points will be a bit over 400 points most of the time, but a generalist converted back to build points will be way over.  But that's all right, because the generalist is not overpowering.  His low dice pools should be less costly than high dice pools.

[Whipstitch]

Even being a special attribute archetype isn't all bad under karmagen either. Now, if you wanted to be the type of Magician that can routinely rack up 3-4 successes per cast and routinely laugh off all the drain, then yeah, you'll have a trickier time of your build. But if your concept is more of a general practitioner who can avoid attacks on the astral, prepare his own binding materials or design his own spells, you'll have a much, much easier time of incorporating some minor talent in these areas. Beyond that, it's also worth considering that in-game Karma is a bit more valuable to Magicians, Adepts and TMs given that they have progression options that simply are not available at standard character generation. Spending karma on all the specialties you passed up on in BP gen is still a great way to score some cheap dice, but every time you do so your putting off another initiate grade that much further. By contrast with Karmagen you're not really paying any opportunity cost premium when you pick up two ranks of Dodge and the Ranged specialization.

[Triggvi]

[quote author=Glyph link=topic=3343.msg40950#msg40950 date=1303578902
On Karmagen: 
It tends to create weaker awakened characters (which might be a plus for GMs who feel they are too powerful).  Special Attributes in karmagen fall under the maximum allowable points allocation (in other words, a human can only spend 375 points on all Attributes, including Edge and Magic or Resonance).  Also, the limit of one maxed-out Attribute includes the special Attributes in karmagen.  So for example, a human couldn't have a Willpower of 6 and Magic of 6.
[/quote]

The attribute limit doesn't include special attributes.

[Glyph]

Unfortunately, special Attributes do fall under the limits I mentioned in karmagen.  They don't in build points.  Read karmagen - Step 3, purchasing Attributes, has the special Attributes included.  I didn't notice this at first, either, because I went in assuming that they were handled the same way they were with build points.

[Triggvi]

they language is a little vague. No one has ever played it that way. It is something that needs to be cleared up.

It says that attribute (including special attribute) are bought fro the formula of the same table. After that is goes into explaining about limits for attributes.

[Glyph]

I would probably house rule that the limit doesn't apply to special Attributes, myself, mainly because that limitation hits humans more than any other metatype.  Just pointing out what the RAW is (although it could just as easily be poor editing).

[Kontact]

I don't think that socials work like you think that they work. 
As I understand them, using social skills is a conscious act of manipulation, not a default mode of interaction.

For example, you don't need to have etiquette to not act like a jerk.  You need it to convince a guy, who thinks you're a jerk, that you are not a jerk.  It's used to change people's opinion of you.  So, if you're calling a contact, the only time you'd use etiquette is if you're trying to improve your relationship.  Just like you would only use Negotiation to convince them to do you a favor above their loyalty rating.

using etiquette
The Etiquette skill allows a character to fit in. More than just the knowledge of customs, rituals, and proper behavior patterns, it represents a character’s ability to talk the talk and walk
the walk without stepping on anyone’s toes. (SR4A book pg 133)

You stopped reading a little early, eh?  continued below with emphasis on the actual mechanical uses of the skill.

...Because of the sheer variety of subcultures, social
customs, and mores in the mid-twenty-first century, the Etiquette skill also encompasses
a character’s ingrained ability to feel a situation out, to instinctively
know what is proper or what will get the character what she wants.
Etiquette can be used to put people at ease, convince someone
that you belong, manipulate conversations to get information out
of people, judge people’s attitudes, and ease their suspicions. Unlike
Negotiation, which involves giving and taking, making a deal or ex-
change, or convincing people to do or allow something, Etiquette in-
volves getting by because you look, act, and feel like you belong.
When using Etiquette to ease someone’s suspicions, make an
Opposed Test between the character’s Etiquette + Charisma vs. the
target’s Perception + Charisma. If the character wins, each net hit
reduces the level of hostility/suspicion by one step (from Enemy to
Hostile, Hostile to Prejudiced, and so on). If the target wins, no reduc-
tion takes place.
Etiquette can also be used to negate a gaffe made by the player that
the character is unlikely to have made. In this case, the player makes an
Etiquette Test against a Threshold equal to the severity of the gaff (1
minor, 2 medium, 3 severe, 4 disastrous). If successful, the gamemaster
should treat the mistake as if it never happened, or as if the character
was clever enough to conceal it before anyone noticed.
When using Etiquette against a group of characters, use the dice
pool of the leader, the most vocal group member, or simply the largest
dice pool among the targets with a +1 for each extra person (max +5).

If there's a part in there that leads you to believe that you need etiquette to not call your contact a dickwad and spit in his face, I didn't see it.  As far as I can tell, you either use it to negate a player gaffe (which, is up to the GM) or to improve your social dice modifiers. 

Just like you don't need the Running skill to move faster than your walk rate, you don't need social skills just to speak without pissing off everyone you meet.  Just don't do things like walk into a Stiletto bar wearing a business suit and you're alright.