[Fortinbras]

What is going on with Eliohann the Matrix Dragon?
I know his conscious is missing since the C'64 (Crash 2.0) or he is locked up in the Matrix. But what is he become? An e-Ghost, so a copy of the dead dragon mind or is he still alive, but his mind can't find the exit anymore?

He shows up in Emergence and hires the runners to rescue his AI friend from an MCT subsidiary outside Boston.
He hires them from a virtual club, but is seen in a bland, corporate icon, albeit in amazingly high resolution, rather than his usual three headed dog or the scales he saw when re re-rezzed after the Crash.

Buggy adventure though, because while he meets the runners on the Matrix, in the next paragraph it says he gives them two portable drives. Not sure how I'm going to run that when my players get to that adventure.

[The_Gun_Nut]

He's a dragon.  He planned on them taking the job and had the portable drives shipped to them ahead of time.

Those guys know how to plan ahead.

[Fortinbras]

If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.

The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."

[Charybdis]

If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.

The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."

Really? Sounds like a bunch of pansies.

This is what Safe Houses, fake ID's and alternative lifestyles are for. So what if an 'anonymous' johnson finds out where you live? Go find out where  they live, who they are, who they're family is, and politely advise it's rude to snoop.

The go with backup accommdation and ID's until you determine what's more worthwhile: Change lifestyle or remove employer....

[Morg]

If your

If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.

The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."

If your runners are part of the matrix then someone knows where they are even if they don't know the significance, every message sent every search run they add up you don't need to be a god to find them a Technomancer/Otoku/Virtualkinetic after the first submersion could find them...

[Charybdis]

If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.

There's a good article in one of the Seattle sourcebooks about hiding in plain sight. Basically, it advises that even though cameras are omnipresent, DNA can be traced and calls can be tracked, there's no one single entity doing all this.

Just because you left DNA at a Renraku scene, doesn't mean they can Google the sample and link it back to the DocWagon contract. The brilliant thing about extra-territoriality is that none of the Corps share this information

Also, billions/trillions of activities are tracked every day, and information is only useful if it's current. So, while the corps is tracking down who hit them at the lab and narrows the DNA sample to a Caucasian Male, a quick disguise to look Asian while you hop a bus for a few hours, and they're not going to narrow the search to find you until you're long, long gone.

Sounds like your group has a self-confidence issue. I mean, how can you get a good rep anywhere if no-one can find you?

[Fortinbras]

Really? Sounds like a bunch of pansies.

This is what Safe Houses, fake ID's and alternative lifestyles are for. So what if an 'anonymous' johnson finds out where you live? Go find out where  they live, who they are, who they're family is, and politely advise it's rude to snoop.

The go with backup accommdation and ID's until you determine what's more worthwhile: Change lifestyle or remove employer....

If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.
The Johnson is a dragon who lives in the Matrix. His closest relative is a Great dragon who owns NeoNET. Best of luck removing him.

What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.
They payed for those lifestyles and SINs with hard earned cash, so to open up the game and just take away something is kind of jerk move for the GM. It depletes player moral for no other reason than I couldn't think of a better way to give them the drivers, and it means they probably won't take the job, so the mission I've outlined can now be thrown away.

If your runners are part of the matrix then someone knows where they are even if they don't know the significance, every message sent every search run they add up you don't need to be a god to find them a Technomancer/Otoku/Virtualkinetic after the first submersion could find them...

He would be a God in a storytelling sense. Like Tim Robbins at the end of Arlington Road. If a character knows not only where you are and, more importantly, what you will do, then from a mechanical standpoint he can see everything(omnipresence) and know everything(omniscience). That makes him God. Or he might as well be, as far as the players are concerned.
More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.

I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.

[Charybdis]

If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.

You know what they say about assumptions, right?

What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.

Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'

More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.

Correction: It says 'It doesn't matter what you do, or how far you run. This guy will find you if he has to'
Hell, have fun with it! It's like FastJack always knowing what time it is when Picador logs into JackPoint. It's a game they play.

I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.

Errr, dude. Your responsibility here has limits.
- If you decide that Ares nuke the run target from orbit before the team accomplishes their goals, then it happens.
- If the bad guys have a prototype raygun that ignores armour, then it happens.
You can still be reasonable, no problems. But Shadowrun is an unreasonable world, and the PC's are Career Criminals. Life is not meant to be fair for these players, and they should very rarely feel safe....

- Even today, If you cut someone off in traffic, they may decide to get out of their car and attack you with a bat. It happens...
- In Shadowrun, that same guy may be a drek-hot decker, mage or corporate bigwig, with a vindictive streak (maybe even some points for the Negative Quality?  ) There is ALWAYS someone better than you in shadowrun, and if you piss of the wrong people, they WILL find you. ALWAYS.

When a company has thousands, millions, even billions of dollars in reasources to find you, all your fake ID's and stealthy lifestyle mean sweet bugger-all.

Times like these you need bigger friends whose whole career is in hiding/transporting/falsifying. Or you need to make a deal for them to 'lose your file'.

There are sooooo many other, creative ways to stay under the radar. I just think your PC's are taking it all a bit too one-dimensionally. It's not 'Hide or Die', it's 'Run in the Shadows'.

The PC's are supposed to live in the twilight between plain sight and invisibility. If they think they'll never be found, then thei're naive and deserve a rude shock from a Matrix dragon....

[Morg]

If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.
The Johnson is a dragon who lives in the Matrix. His closest relative is a Great dragon who owns NeoNET. Best of luck removing him.

What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.
They payed for those lifestyles and SINs with hard earned cash, so to open up the game and just take away something is kind of jerk move for the GM. It depletes player moral for no other reason than I couldn't think of a better way to give them the drivers, and it means they probably won't take the job, so the mission I've outlined can now be thrown away.

He would be a God in a storytelling sense. Like Tim Robbins at the end of Arlington Road. If a character knows not only where you are and, more importantly, what you will do, then from a mechanical standpoint he can see everything(omnipresence) and know everything(omniscience). That makes him God. Or he might as well be, as far as the players are concerned.
More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.

I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.

I see your shadowrun games are the brighter future games. Shadowrun novels and fluff have never let me think that any of the characters ever lived in this kind of idyllic safty. My players would stop playing if they ever felt that way, they want to feel like they lived a shadow run novel. None of their information is ever safe. PCs are suppose to have hard choices "do I leave behind yet another fake sin or keep it and take the risks" or "do I leave behind yet another peace of my soul for another ware upgrade" or "do I risk my brain in hot VR just to get a that little extra in the matrix"

The cyberpunk genre is about risk, paranoia and a dark story. if you don't have the right mix then you are not quite getting the flavor of shadowrun.

weather or not your pcs can be found isn't relay about how much trouble they went through to hide themselves it is about weather the powers that be wish to know something enough to throw the resources at it... could the local street gang or a lowly wageslave track them no. Could a dragon, mega corp or prime runner track them sure. They just need to be willing to put enough resources and time at it and unless the PCs contacts loyalty ratings are 4+ information will be sold about them from time to time and if you want to feel like you aren't being unfair about it their are plenty of game mechanics to simulate how much info can be tracked down

that my .02¥ anyway

[Ultra Violet]

@Morg
Okay do we talk cyberpunk or do we talk shadowrun?

I use SR in many different ways, from the common street punk, dark alley to the pink pop neon lights of Media City L.A., so the 6th world is more than one tune, you can play anything you like, in it, and the background material or rules of the SR-books do allow many settings and tell us even more stories.
That a main theme is about the life of shadowrunners doesn't mean you have to play only on that railroad...

I myself play it with different people in different ways, and it depends on what the players want, do they like more realistic and endgame depression or do they like more action cinema kung fu fighting streetsamurai, there are as many ways to play and "live" shadowrun as playing groups. And that's the beauty of it, nobody dictates you a certain style.

And even the SR-novels are not one style some of them are playing in the lower gang street region some of them in the high class between the rich and the powerful...

But back to the topic...

I'm thinking that everyone with that kind of background and resources can get rid of any traces, and he doesn't work alone... In other words it lies in the hands of the GM, if he wants to give the player a shot, than he can try, but there is no everyone can be find. Yes magic or resonance powers can do much wonders, but we are speaking of people with power and resources of the PC wet dreams. Again in other words, if one little technomancer tries to follow the traces, ten technomancer workers of NeoNets elite deleting all traces or meanwhile they tracing him back and sending a team to extract him...
The thing with SR is you can make it easy or air tied for the players... It's all right as long as you and your players have fun.

Just my 2¥
UV

[Morg]

@ UV
you have to admit that the shadowrun material has an overriding dark undertone and while L.A. is not Manhattan it's underside is just as black and seeing that your playing a criminal you are part of that underside that is of course as you say subject to the style of game your playing but as I recall shadowrun defined as part of the cyberpunk genre is it not?

that not saying you can't change things as you like it that is what roleplaying is about. I am just feel that it would be more "True to the setting"

my .02¥

[Charybdis]

@UV and @Morg,

IMHO you're both right, as it's about balance between SR fiction, PC desire and GM intervention.

The other thing to point out is it can be irrelevant how easy/hard it is to find the PC's. What's important is how much notification they get that someone's snooping over their dossiers

Even in the Emergence module, particularly Matrix-savvy/secure runners may have heard before the meet that someone's been snooping over several of their layered Fake ID's.

When they then come face-toface (relatively) with the Johnson, they may even have a snide little bit of leverage in the meet:
'Ahh, so you're the one who's been checking out my work history. I'm assuming you liked what you saw, else we wouldn't be having this business discussion'...

[Sichr]

Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'

Jup and now give me the reason why that motherfucker needs runners. If I dont believe it, players dont believe it either. And it would ruin the game. Talking about the fun. Game.

I ve read this conversation through and through and I ve come to the conclusion:

Fortinbras : Charybdis
         1       :       0

As if you want some realy bullshit: There is a quote in WAR that says, that Hualpa mybe would condemn Sirrugs actions against AZT.
WHAT???
This completely lacks any understanding of Cycle of magic and relationship between Dragons and short living entities like worms, flies and humans...Would the Dragon admit that another one should be judged by "men"? What again??? One of those dragons that once fought Therans (read Azzies)? One who knows, that after maybe 30 generations of theese little meat puppets Horrors would come and wipe out everything once again? Would lose his PRIDE for eternity because of one city shaterred to dust by some angry cousin - or- whatever - kind of relationship they have...
And more to it, I ve read Dragons of the 6th world some time ago and I remember that any dragons, nut just the great ones, are highly territorial beasts whiich are almost unable to stay in the company of its own kind for a few hours, not speaking about yars. Even their mating ritual is highly non-romantic affair.

Is it possible, that this:
"...Manaus, the national capital of Amazonia, which also happens to be where Hualpa, Arleesh, and Sirrurg have lairs"
Should be at least close to true? I simply could not imagine that.

[Fortinbras]

It's not a contest. But good to know that if it were, I'd be winning. Just kidding. Really.

I actually agree with most of what Chary says, but some of my players don't. I have to coax them, like a mama bird, into the world of Shadowrun.
Last time I threw them out of the nest, they moved to Nice and said they were going to try to find work there.
I don't want to run in Nice.
Nor can I just say "This is how the world works!" I've done that, and they don't listen.
I need to show them. Show them that I won't arbitrarily kill them because I'm in a bad mood or run a month worth of games involving nothing more than me sending MCT teams after them no matter what they do.

I've got a pretty diverse group. Some have played RPG's for years, some have played for months. Some are 16, some are 60+. Some have read Psychotrope, some still ask how many dice they roll to shoot things after 12 games. I have a responsibility to all of them. I enjoy playing with all of them.

I need to demonstrate that fake SINs are a thing they need to buy because they work. If they buy a bunch of SIN and alt lifestyles and I take them away for no reason, the next time it comes to buy them they won't, saying "Whoever will just find us anyway."
If I then do a, b and c to show they need a fake SIN, they'll just dismiss it outright. After all, four months ago, they didn't know what a SIN was. Then I told them they had to buy one. Then I told them it didn't matter. Now I'm telling them they need another one. Heck, even I'd say I'm moving to Nice just to piss the GM off myself.

Trust me, my players make plenty of mistakes on their own that allow me to demonstrate that the world is a scary place. To throw something at them arbitrarily, just to prove I'm the boss of them makes me a crappy boss.

[Charybdis]

It's not a contest. But good to know that if it were, I'd be winning. Just kidding. Really.

Nah, credit where it's due    I can handle losing a few battles...

Trust me, my players make plenty of mistakes on their own that allow me to demonstrate that the world is a scary place. To throw something at them arbitrarily, just to prove I'm the boss of them makes me a crappy boss.

I completely concur on this point, but every now and then, even arbitrarily, things go wrong for shadowrunners.

Sometimes, someone just decides 'Tag, you're it', and the Matrix dragon is a prime example.

A few sessions ago, I had to remotely self-destruct a ¥26k commlink because it got left at the scene. That was two run's pay gone due to just damned bad luck, but it was the price of the industry.

Every now and then, it's constructive for runners to realise that they are the little fish. While they may be the cinematic heroes of the movie, they are the Running Men in a much larger game.

What I cannot understand is how any runner, anywhere, can maintain any decent rep without anyone ever knowing how to find them.
1) You can't live completely off-grid, or you'll never get any work
2) You can't ignore all your chummers, or you'll never have anyone to work with
3) You can't change commlinks every day, because your fixer needs to know how to find you
4) You can probably change physical safehouses a lot, but you have to either keep them in multiple fakeID names, or trust in Squatting at non-descript, unlisted locations (or a combination of the two).

Even the most paranoid runner, if they're active still in the biz (ie not Retired) leaves a data trail (physical, matrix or both).

Rarely, but possibly, someone large may spend their resources at hand to follow that trail, if they feel it's worth the effort.

In the case of this Matrix dragon run, all it's doing is providing two physical hard-drives either at the meet (which I think was Virtual only) or at one of the group's FakeID locations (I don't believe it says it has to be the runner's prime/active location, just has to be delivered to a valid address).

All I'm saying is that this hardly necessitates the group shutting shop, killing the courier and passerby, then moving to an Antarctica ward to watch the penguins
Note: Those penguins could be spies too!  That shift walk they do looks pretty suspicious to me 

Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'

Jup and now give me the reason why that motherfucker needs runners. If I dont believe it, players dont believe it either. And it would ruin the game. Talking about the fun. Game.

*shrugs* There's a bunch of reasons why runners are needed day-to-day, all of which still apply here. How about:
1) I have no physical form to do the job myself
2) I've got an opportunity to hack an Aesir satellite ATM, which is going to take me a few days. BRB kthxbye
3) I can't take the chance someone will see me
4) I'm testing you for something bigger
5) You're expendable in case things get dicey
6) You're deniable in case evidence is left at the scene

or further secret reasons options 7) through 100)

What, you don't think the CEO of DocWagon keeps a file on which of his clients who come in regularly with bulletwounds?
'Hmmm,' he says. 'I need some deniable assets for a job. I wonder if they'll be interested in doing some work for me in return for a Platinum contract upgrade?'