[baronspam]

Hi all,

Im working on a character concept for a close combat specialist who is incredibly tough.  Some ideas that I have so far-

Metatype: Troll seems obvious, although ork still pretty tough and has more balanced combat stats, and is cheaper.  But for pure supertank troll seems to be the way to go.

Augmentation:  Dermal Plating or Dermal Sheath.  Bone lace.  So What else would be good here?  Lets see if we can really run up the damage resistance roll, as well as ways to heal and mitigate damage that he does take.

Also, positive quality suggestions.

400 bp character and standard availability rules, so if it costs 200k or has a 20F rating probably not going to fit.

Suggestions?

Also, on a broader level, any suggestions on going the tank route vs going for maxium reaction and dodge skills?  Is shrugging off the damage as good an option as not getting hit in the first place?  Does the elf sammi beat the troll tank because the elf doesn't have to use his (smaller) dice pool to resist damage in the first place?

[Stahlseele]

Troll is ok, but throw everything else out of the window, go for complete cyber limb replacement, armor up . .
There you go, an easy 20+ Armor when NAKED . . also, at least 5 more condition monitor boxes . .
Nope, not taking Damage is WAY better than shrugging off damage . .
Because, at 30 points of Armor, EVERY Damage you take goes to STUN Damage anyway . . and your Stun Condition Monitor is WAY shorter than the physical one . .

[baronspam]

Troll is ok, but throw everything else out of the window, go for complete cyber limb replacement, armor up . .
There you go, an easy 20+ Armor when NAKED . . also, at least 5 more condition monitor boxes . .
Nope, not taking Damage is WAY better than shrugging off damage . .
Because, at 30 points of Armor, EVERY Damage you take goes to STUN Damage anyway . . and your Stun Condition Monitor is WAY shorter than the physical one . .

Hummmmm..... had not considered this option.  Will have to crunch numbers when I get home.  Is armor subject to the maxium dice pool rules?

Edit:  Anyone know how much essence all four limbs plus torso is?  I haven't read the cyberlimb rules in a while, but I think you nead the cybertorso for stroll strength limbs.

Further edit:  Lets stay you replace all the limbs, limbs have their own agility score.  At that point you are going to be using the agility of the limbs for everthing more or less.  Is it legal to dump your native agility to 1 at that point? 

[Makki]

Hummmmm..... had not considered this option.  Will have to crunch numbers when I get home.  Is armor subject to the maxium dice pool rules?

there is no such rule. There's only an Optional Rule capping dice at 20. And it can't include armor, because some vehicles have 20+ armor.

Full cyber replacement is probably the easiest way. trick it out with stuff and you're inspector gadget. But if some dumpshockers see this thread they will suggest possession magic. Oh, I just did.

[Maelstrom]

Troll is actually cheaper than Orc given the higher BODY and STRENGTH it gives.  Troll is a huge target.  Add chrome all over, and you may start hearing "Holy crud, Fred, grab the anti-tank rounds!"  Not to mention that you'll get targeted by every opponent.

Check to see how your GM rules cyberlimb armor, and whether or not they allow it to stack with orthoskin, dermal plating, and worn armor.  (It does by 4E RAW.)

19 from cyberlimb, 3 from orthoskin, 2 from bulky dermal deposits, 14/12 SWAT Armor & helm, 6/2 FFBA, 2/4 PPP no helm = Total 46/42, not including dual-wielding ballistic shields (and whatever I forgot)


Info below copy/pasted from this thread: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3724.msg48612#msg48612

Max armor is 19 from obvious cyberlimbs and 17 from synthetic.

Standard - Essence cost 6.25 (can't be done).
Alpha - Essence cost 5.0
Delta - Essence 3.125 (maybe in somebody's campaign...)

Customized Obvious:
Full arm will have 7 capacity left.
Full leg will have 12 capacity left.
Torso will have 2 capacity left.
Skull will have 0 capacity left.

Customized cyberlimbs can be increased to natural attribute maximum.  If you have strength or agility augmented to above natural maximum, you still have to enhance the cyberlimbs or those stats effectively decrease.  The elf street samurai dual-wielding full automatics can fit cyberarm gyromount [4] and has [3] left to buy whatever else he wants in his arms - i.e. agility.

Customized synthetic, almost nothing else can be added:
Full arm - 0 capacity left
Full leg - 2 capacity left
Torso - 1 capacity left

[Stahlseele]

Remember, you can still get Bone-Work done to you, even if you technically do not have any bones in your body, due to replacing everything with metal bitz . .

[baronspam]

"not including duel weilding balistic shields".

Best chuckle I have had in a while.  Whats the damage code on a shield bash?

[Stahlseele]

It's your usual sub standard club with reach 1 or 0 i think . .
So STR/2+0 or +1 or something like that . .
But seeing how a SHIELD is a piece of ARMOR . . Armor Mods?
Zabber-Strips or however those passive electroshock armor mod option was called?
And where did the Tazer-Shield go?

[Yorick]

first, get a trauma dampener. this thing is wonderful for reducing the amount of stun you take.

considering how these builds work, a SURGE III dwarf with a willpower of 9 may be a good idea (metagenic improvement(ability), dermal deposits, and genetic optimization geneware). that gives you 13 boxes of stun, and as has been mentioned you can get enough armor to turn everything into stun. also dwarves get a high body, the better to wear more armor. 

[anotherJack]

Another completely different option option is to make a magician with possession, close combat specialist. Less armor, but it's hardened, so you don't need to roll most of the time, 2 IPs, and it improves your attributes. You don't event need to be a full magician.
The drawback is you don't really control your character under possession, untill you get the channelling metamagic.

[Makki]

first, get a trauma dampener. this thing is wonderful for reducing the amount of stun you take.

considering how these builds work, a SURGE III dwarf with a willpower of 9 may be a good idea (metagenic improvement(ability), dermal deposits, and genetic optimization geneware). that gives you 13 boxes of stun, and as has been mentioned you can get enough armor to turn everything into stun. also dwarves get a high body, the better to wear more armor.

add in a Pain Editor or Sideways.

[Glyph]

For a more traditional tank, generally you want some skin augmentation and some bone augmentation.  Cost and Essence constraints usually mean that you will get one of them as cyberware, and one of them as bioware.  The two best options I see are:

Ceramic bone lacing (don't get the metal stuff; you'll light up the MAD scanners) and orthoskin: 3 gives 3 ballistic armor, 5 impact armor, and 2 more dice for damage resistance.

dermal sheath: 2 and bone density: 4 give 2 ballistic armor, 3 impact armor, and 4 more dice for damage resistance.  Also, due to the irrational quirks of 'ware legality, this combo is completely legal.

Platelet factories would be a better option for mitigating damage than a trauma dampener, since it flat out reduces damage.  Changing it to stun (like the trauma dampener does) is not as useful, since with a massive amount of armor, most damage will already be turned into stun.

[baronspam]

Having done some Math, the full cyborg replacement is really out of the price range of a standard 400 bp character.  Its an interesting exercise in system mechanics, maybe useful as an npc, but just the limbs in alphaware is 160k, plus the customized limbs for a good set of stats on every piece and you are out of very quickly out of money.  Of course you can use capacity and just buy enhancements, which costs less money, but by the time you get decent body, str, and agi you have used alot of your capacity just matching your stats. 

Also, the availability on a cybertorso with armor 4 is 32.  Even with the Restricted gear quality you can only go up to 20.

So, very interesting, but it will have to wait for another day.

I think the take way for me here though is that limbs are a good way to add additional armor, even if not going full 'borg.  A couple of limbs, some kind of skin mod, some bone lace, you are not robo cop but I bet you can be a pretty tough troll.

[anotherJack]

I think there's a trick when you make a full borg, because a lot of my friends do, and don't seem to have the problems you talk about.
I'm not sure, can't you buy "second hand alphaware", in order to lower a lot the price ?

[Medicineman]

a Full Cyber Suite (Torso, Skull ,Arms & Legs) saves another 10& in Essence and ¥   (thats what I did for my Char Cyb Ork together with Biocompatibility  to Cyberware )
He started with an Armor of 10/10 IIRC (Torso 1 , Skull 1 ,Arms and Legs 2 Each)
but such a Char needs "time to develop" . (now with ca 100 Karma he's quite good ) its not an "Instant Tank Char"
Ork mystical Adept, Possessing Tradition, Plantspirit for Healing (later You get Regeneration with a Spirit in ....Large Form)BOD 7 ,two Cyber Lower Arms (for Cyberarmor), ,Formfitting Fullbody, Softweave  Armored Jacket with Helmet,Ballistic Mask, PSP
Thats 7 +6 + 6 + 8 + 4 =31 Dice Ballistic +Dice for Spirit & ItnW + Armor Spell + Mystic Armor
7 + 6+2 +6 +6 = 27 Dice Impact + Dice for Spirit & ItnW + Armor Spell + Mystic Armor

HougH!
medicineman