[nojosecool]

Believe it or not, this smartgun accessory thing seems to come up a lot.  Here's a pretty good discussion of it that I witnessed some months ago.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0

Another thing to think about is that, functionally, the "integral" smartgun system does not, in any way, act like an accessory.  (You can't add or remove it, etc.)  I believe that when they talked about mods and accessories having duplicate effects, they were discussing things like the vent-gas accessory and the vent-gas mod.  Or the silencer accessory and the silencer mod.

I mean, RAW says "The difference between the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifications require an application of the modification rules mentioned at the beginning of this chapter." (128)

This actually makes it sound like internal smartgun systems would be miscategorized as accessories if we used this definition.  External ones, however, bolt right on and require no such knowledge.

[DWC]

Believe it or not, this smartgun accessory thing seems to come up a lot.  Here's a pretty good discussion of it that I witnessed some months ago.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0

Another thing to think about is that, functionally, the "integral" smartgun system does not, in any way, act like an accessory.  (You can't add or remove it, etc.)  I believe that when they talked about mods and accessories having duplicate effects, they were discussing things like the vent-gas accessory and the vent-gas mod.  Or the silencer accessory and the silencer mod.

I mean, RAW says "The difference between the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifications require an application of the modification rules mentioned at the beginning of this chapter." (128)

This actually makes it sound like internal smartgun systems would be miscategorized as accessories if we used this definition.  External ones, however, bolt right on and require no such knowledge.

The internal smartgun system accessory can be inserted and removed.  It can because it is an accessory and all accessories can be inserted and removed.  If you've chosen to ignore the written rules and instead make assumptions of errors on the part of the editors, then there's nothing else I can do.  You've read the rules that say you're wrong.  You've quoted the rule that says you're wrong.

Here's one more, from the "Smart or Not" paragraph on pg148, "Many 2070-era firearms, however, are equipped with a smartgun system, either off-the-rack, as an internal or external firearm accessory, or as a weapon modification."

I'll agree that the existence of the accessory and the modification is redundant, and I can't imagine why anyone would use the modification when there is no drawback to the accessory and the modification offers no additional benefit, but there it is.

[nojosecool]

Dude, RAW is in no way clear here.  Therefore, our interpretations are different.  They way you are putting it is that your interpretation is correct, and all others are incorrect.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I disagree with your reading of the rules.  It really doesn't matter either, because you will probably never my GM, just like I will probably never be yours.

Also, Charybdis and I aren't exactly the unenlightened minority here.    If you look at the link I provided, you'll see that we're not the only ones who believe that this wording is ambiguous, and that there are a lot of good reasons for disagreeing with your reading.  Again, RAW is confusing here considering obviously different opinions of what "internal" means.  To me, it would seem that an internal system is inseparable from the weapon unless you put in some serious work (i.e. a weapon modification).  I cannot conceive of an internal AND easily removable system that doesn't require some kind of weapon modification.  You clearly disagree, which is fine.  Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I disagree.

[DWC]

I read the link.  I read it twice, actually.  It's full of people who are ignoring that the rules differentiate between the accessory called "Smartgun System, Internal" and the modification called "Smartgun System".  There's even a sentence that states that both are possible, which you're ignoring.

I still won't dispute that the rule as written is dumb.  The modification "Smartgun System" should offer some benefit that the accessory "Smartgun System, Internal" does not, like requiring the modification to use modifications that require a smartgun system, but it doesn't. 

Look at other similar overlaps.  The bipod accessory is 2 points of recoil comp.  The internal bipod modification is retractable via wireless command and can also be used as a foregrip.  The Silencer and Sound Suppressor modifications offer improved performance over their accessory variants.  The foregrip accessory only works on Full Bursts.  The foregrip modification works all the time.  The underbarrel weight has the same difference between accessory and modification.  The sling accessory is a convenience.  The sling modification is a recoil compensation device that helps with Concealability.  There are plenty of cases where the modification has advantages over the accessory that make them worth the extra effort.

Someone got lazy when they wrote the entry for the Smartgun System modification, not giving it any special benefit, and instead calling it the internal version of the accessory.  It's a bad bit of writing, but since nothing in it negates the existence of the "Smartgun System, Internal" accessory, that's all it is.

[nojosecool]

Wow.  This ceased to be a productive conversation a couple posts back.  Look, I like you DWC.  Can we leave this where it lies?

[DWC]

Sure.  We do agree that the rules are screwy, and we both like Shadowrun, so the rest is really not worth stressing about.

[Onion Man]

DWC, I don't necessarily want to attack your mastery of the English language, but p.153 is absolutely specific with no room for semantic ambiguity or liberal interpretation as to what an internal smartgun system (p311-312 SR4 or p 322 SR4A) is.

You are wrong, and there are no ifs, ands, buts, or any other prepositions about it.

[DWC]

Since I was already fine with ending this circle of us pointing out contradictory rules by agreeing to disagree, how about I buy both of y'all a beer in Indy next week and we stop boring the rest of the board with this?

[Onion Man]

New rules, like those that appear in Arsenal compared to those rooted in SR4, do not contradict the old rules, they revise, supersede, and replace old rules.  Much like a new contract revises or replaces an old one, and new laws revise or supersede old ones.

I won't be at Indy (IMHO the only reason to go to that city is to watch a Packers away game), but I'd gladly take you up on that beer if I were going to be there.

Arsenal contains what we call unequivocal language.  No room for interpretation with the statement "A is B".