[Orkimedes]

Some of the questions that have been percolating in my mind vis a vis SR firearms...

While all the assault rifles in the SRA book are depicted as having rigid stocks (as is only logical) these are not mentioned in the descriptions, nor are they calculated into their RC. In Arsenal, the rules for stocks are included, and say they provide 1 point of RC, and allow you to mount a shock pad. I shall assume this is merely an oversight, and in fact they all do come with stocks. Just want to check with everyone else.

What is the ubiquitous light rocket launcher in SR? Arsenal's description for the LAW says that it is. Like the Aztechnology Striker from the SRA, it is a one shot disposable weapon. But the most ubiquitous one in our time is the RP-7, the venerable Soviet RPG. I should think that it would actually be more popular, or its equivalent, than the LAW. Since the LAW is disposable, and you always have to buy another. IRL, the LAW is a popular and useful weapon because it's quite light and rather compact in it's storage form, so several soldiers in squad could carry one in case they need some quick rocket fire. The LAW in Arsenal also comes with its own rocket, so you don't have to buy it separate like the Striker. The MAW sounds more like an RPG though, since it fires dumb rockets from replaceable canisters. Finally, the picture in the SRA next to the Striker looks a lot like an RPG, and it appears you can reload it. So I'm confused.

Lastly, what is the purpose of an assault cannon? I know, I know, "blow things to hell". I mean, what purpose was it designed for? It is a huge and heavy weapon, seemingly designed only for troll soldiers. It blows things up really well and turns people into paste, but it seems like overkill for...everything. In an age when personal body armor seems to have a big leg up on conventional arms, it seems easy to shrug off gunfire so long as it isn't accurate, armor piercing, or high explosive. Is the assault cannon designed to blow armored soldiers apart? Or is the ubiquity of drones on the battlefield the reason for it? You can blow Dobermans pretty much straight to hell with one. Or is it supposed to be a man portable way to swiss cheese light vehicles? Its just curious to me; its basically a man portable 20 mm explosive cannon. Why do you need that?

[CanRay]

1:  The rules for shoulder braces are for weapons that don't normally have them equipped.

2:  Fluff and Art problems.  There isn't one, really, as there's no "Typical" anything any longer in Shadowrun.  NATO and the Warsaw Pact are dead and gone, so there's no standardization for anything.  Even tanks of the same build can have different caliber cannons (Mentioned in Fields of Fire, IIRC.).  The RPG-7 is ubiquitous in the former Warsaw Pact countries, and people who want something they can teach conscripted, illiterate, drunken farmers to use, just like the Kalashnikov family of assault rifles (Which doesn't make them any less effective, BTW.  Just simple.).  The Carl Gustav Recoiless Rifle is fairly common for a multiple use launcher in NATO, BTW.

3:  The Assault Cannon is actually your answer to number two, as it's semi-automatic usage allows for light anti-armour use while still being portable.  It's used as a "Rifle" by Trolls, but can be used by strong Humans, Orks, and Dwarves on a bipod mount (Or, for high-tech infantry, Gyromount.).  It's not really meant to be used against people as it makes really good chunky salsa.  ...  Which is why Shadowrunners love using it. 

EDIT:  This is all conjecture on my part, BTW.

[Charybdis]

Some really valid queries, and while I'm not a Gun Nut (although at least one forum member is...) I have some thoughts in response.

A) Gun rules in Shadowrun are meant to be a bit more abstract. Like all mechanics, they try to seperate the Crunch (rules mechanics) from the Fluff (non-rules details, descriptions or images). If you're using the description or image to indicate additional mechanics, then that's a GM's prerogative, go nuts. However nobody says that the images are 'unmodded/vanilla weaponry specification'... they're just VERY cool artwork, and should be treated as such
B) Assault Rifles and stocks - Some rifles do have them providing RC, some don't. Some allow additional mountings, some don't. House-ruling the whole group of weapons to say 'Assault Rifles have stocks that provide RC1' is a perfectly valid viewpoint, but it's not mandatory.
C) Is there a ubiquitous rocket launcher in SR4? I guess any particular campaign may utilise such weapons a lot, but given their illegality and lack of concealment, none of my campaigns would ever consider such a large weapon omnipresent (ie, ubiquitous)
D) The line between Rocket Launchers and RPG's is another abstract term in SR4 (and commented further in a thread here). The general rule is: Rockets have guidance systems, RPG's do not.
Note: I say general because there are, as always, exceptions.
E) Assault cannons are cool. Do they need to serve a purpose? It's basically a Robocop-style anti-vehicle weapon. While it doesn't suit a sneaky-espionage-infiltration heavy campaign, who Doesn't want some big dude with an Assault Cannon watching your back?

[Charybdis]

Ninja'ed

By CanRay.

Again.

Tell the truth, you're a forum-squatting AI, aren't you?

[CanRay]

Some really valid queries, and while I'm not a Gun Nut (although at least one forum member is...) I have some thoughts in response.

One forum member in name at least.  Far more than one in fact. 

E-Ghost.

[Kontact]

1) The Shock pad mod costs 50 yen and takes up no mod slots.  No big deal.

2) The rocket rules are so sloppy, that even a squad full of people with rocket launchers could barely hit the side of a building.  That's a fundamental issue you should probably address first.  Remember, rocket scatter is 4d6 meters -1 meter per net hit.  That would require, on average, 7 net hits just to hit a 10-meter long, 10-meter high object.  The most common missile launcher is a useless one.

3)

[CanRay]

The rocket rules really need work.

[Mäx]

Lastly, what is the purpose of an assault cannon? I know, I know, "blow things to hell". I mean, what purpose was it designed for? It is a huge and heavy weapon, seemingly designed only for troll soldiers. It blows things up really well and turns people into paste, but it seems like overkill for...everything. In an age when personal body armor seems to have a big leg up on conventional arms, it seems easy to shrug off gunfire so long as it isn't accurate, armor piercing, or high explosive. Is the assault cannon designed to blow armored soldiers apart? Or is the ubiquity of drones on the battlefield the reason for it? You can blow Dobermans pretty much straight to hell with one. Or is it supposed to be a man portable way to swiss cheese light vehicles? Its just curious to me; its basically a man portable 20 mm explosive cannon. Why do you need that?

For a little more powergamey answer, it's a heavy sniper rifle that is used with heavy weapons skill

[JoeNapalm]

Lastly, what is the purpose of an assault cannon? I know, I know, "blow things to hell". I mean, what purpose was it designed for? It is a huge and heavy weapon, seemingly designed only for troll soldiers. It blows things up really well and turns people into paste, but it seems like overkill for...everything. In an age when personal body armor seems to have a big leg up on conventional arms, it seems easy to shrug off gunfire so long as it isn't accurate, armor piercing, or high explosive. Is the assault cannon designed to blow armored soldiers apart? Or is the ubiquity of drones on the battlefield the reason for it? You can blow Dobermans pretty much straight to hell with one. Or is it supposed to be a man portable way to swiss cheese light vehicles? Its just curious to me; its basically a man portable 20 mm explosive cannon. Why do you need that?

Why wouldn't you need that?! 


But seriously? Trolls. If you have Trolls on your side, you want them carrying something big and scary. If they're NOT on your side, you need something to put them down.

Shooting a big Troll with a little gun is a really good way to piss it off.

Which is a very bad idea.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Deliverator]

I don't know about how shadowrun separates them but an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) and a Rocket Launcher are almost exactly the same thing... A rocket propelled unguided impact explosive warhead. A MISSILE launcher would be guided.
Rocket = dumb
Missile = not dumb.

As far as the SR universe's ubiquitous launcher? Doubt there would be one, its all about what you can get when you need one. They aren't easy to buy, and they aren't easy to hide. So personally I wouldn't carry one around unless I thought I'd need it on the next run.

[savaze]

Like Kontact depicted the Assault Cannon is actually comparable to the Anti-Tank Rifle and are still being used in smaller numbers IRL since WW2. The Anzio 20mm and the Denel-Mecham NTW are more common versions with long histories. The one depicted above is short, but their original model used a shifted-blowback pulse recoil system where the barrel was retracted for storage, so it looked shorter than it was. They usually are in the overall length range of 75-85" and weight in at around 50-70lbs.

As a side note Barret wants part of this market hence the xm109, which to my knowledge isn't off the ground yet. The US government, just bought several more Anzio's (yes, it's a very small market). The problem Barret's having with this model is that the barrel is so short that it's not accurate, which is almost damning for the purpose of the weapon. The other part is that most Anti-Tank rifles use 20x82mm Mauser, 20x102mm, 20x128mm, 20x139mm, 23x115mm, or the 23x152mm and the xm109 is using the 25 × 59mm to make the recoil near manageable and it isn't and doesn't have the same penetration capabilities of the smaller caliber. The round they are using isn't accurate and was never designed to be, it was designed for use in an experimental grenade launcher, that their engineers generously made it a hot load. So they produced a weapon that's lighter than than normal anti-tank rifles, has a LOT more recoil, is less accurate, has less penetration, and the ammo weighs more and is bigger. Not gonna be a seller, just saying...

Edit: Anzio is now making a lighter version at 39lbs, but the info punched into the recoil calculator says it's still manageable
Here's a fun picture from their site (the rifle is 6'8" notice the little scope on it)

[Orkimedes]

Great responses all!

To clarify; I don't mean "where are the RPGs in SR?" I'm not really sure of the technical differences between a LAW's rocket and a RPG round, or what makes an RPG round an RPG round. I mean, the RP-7 is everywhere. Former Warsaw Pact countries, and along with the AK, have flooded the world in arms since the fall of the Soviet Union. Since most SR weapons are based on or descended from whatever cool firearms exist today (note the inclusion of the Barrett weapons, which are relatively new in popular consciousness), I was wondering what replaces it in SR arsenals. The LAW and the Striker, and their equivalents, are presumably the answer. The LAW's description says it is the premier weapon of its type in the world. This makes sense when you think about it; the RP-7 was made to be simple, robust, and easy to manufacture, to arm huge numbers of conscript troops in the Sov armies. This is not a very profitable business model for arms corps in SR. So they picked a weapon system that favored their interests while fulfilling their customers need; the LAW. A one shot, cheap, disposable launcher that leaves you coming back for more once you use it.

Also, there are apparently no SR rules to differentiate an RPG from a rocket, the only distinction is dumb rocket and smart missile.

The AR stocks question has another dimension that becomes obvious when you guys answered. If the stocks are not mentioned as part of their RC or description, is it because its a no brainer that they have them, and they don't really work without one? So a stock is a requirement, and you don't get any RC for it. You can add a shockpad to it for 1, but that's all. And does anybody else feel that the shockpad is the cheapest, must have gun accessory ever?

While we're on the question of accessories; why can't you buy Gas-Vent 1's anymore? Did they just stop making them to drive up demand for Gas-Vent 2's and 3's?

Assault cannons. They're awesome. We all know this. But as has been pointed out, they're really overpowered. They're just way more than you need. And seemingly, they're more popular than their equivalents are now. I still lean towards the troll explanation. Logically though, destroying light vehicles and drones seems something they're very suited to. Also, not to quibble, but the assault cannons in SRA and Arsenal are both SS, not SA. Odd, and puts them more in the heavy rifle category. I have a terrible urge to mod one to fire FA or at least BF, and add Extended Mags to it for some truly disgusting firepower.

[Deliverator]

Like Kontact depicted the Assault Cannon is actually comparable to the Anti-Tank Rifle and are still being used in smaller numbers IRL since WW2. The Anzio 20mm and the Denel-Mecham NTW are more common versions with long histories. The one depicted above is short, but their original model used a shifted-blowback pulse recoil system where the barrel was retracted for storage, so it looked shorter than it was. They usually are in the overall length range of 75-85" and weight in at around 50-70lbs.

As a side note Barret wants part of this market hence the xm109, which to my knowledge isn't off the ground yet. The US government, just bought several more Anzio's (yes, it's a very small market). The problem Barret's having with this model is that the barrel is so short that it's not accurate, which is almost damning for the purpose of the weapon. The other part is that most Anti-Tank rifles use 20x82mm Mauser, 20x102mm, 20x128mm, 20x139mm, 23x115mm, or the 23x152mm and the xm109 is using the 25 × 59mm to make the recoil near manageable and it isn't and doesn't have the same penetration capabilities of the smaller caliber. The round they are using isn't accurate and was never designed to be, it was designed for use in an experimental grenade launcher, that their engineers generously made it a hot load. So they produced a weapon that's lighter than than normal anti-tank rifles, has a LOT more recoil, is less accurate, has less penetration, and the ammo weighs more and is bigger. Not gonna be a seller, just saying...

Edit: Anzio is now making a lighter version at 39lbs, but the info punched into the recoil calculator says it's still manageable
Here's a fun picture from their site (the rifle is 6'8" notice the little scope on it)

The XM109 is an anti material rifle, not an anti-tank rifle. Its designed to do more than the .50 BMG at the same ranges to similar targets. Instead of punching several holes through a truck it blows the truck up with a 25mm high explosive grenade

[Charybdis]

Assault Cannon Mods are nice, but other than SA mode, BF and FA just don't give what you'd call Bang-for-Buck.

Instead of modifying the firing mode, just get some nice AV shells (-4 personal armour, -6 vs vehicles) and start Picking off Medium/Heavily armoured vehicles (instead of light vehicles and drones)

I do recall the Vigilant autocannon (maybe from 2e/3e) which was a nice piece of vehicle-weaponry.

But the major modifications required to mod an Autocannon for FA require a facility (ie not a Shadowrunner), and then there's the Belt-Feed to make it worthwhile for ammo-realoding etc...

Nope, if you want FA firepower, stick with machine guns (and again, AV rounds....you'll make those heavier vehicles ery concerned...

But for big-shot single shell firepower, the Autocannon is King

[CanRay]

And usually something you'd want to mount on a vehicle rather than carry around.