[Mystic]

There's a lot more to any game than hitting a stupid high skill rating.

Like hitting stupid high combat numbers?

I totally agree with Onion on this, unfortunately it also seems to depend on what kind of Game is being run. In my little group, for example, we have a DM who seems to have pretty much given up and his games are nothing BUT number crunches. *yawn*

Now, my games tend to be all about the plot and the characters. High scores are like money in real life: nice to have and make things a lot easier, but not necessary if spent wisely.

It's all about balance. A high score in say weapons isnt going to do you any good if you get hit with say some kind of mind-control thingie and your say willpower to resist is lower than a snake's backside. Whenever I see anyone with a "stupid high" number in anything, it just becomes GM fodder for me if it becomes unbalancing.

[Glyph]

When you're not doing a dice pool exercise of "how high can this skill get", high dice pools get to a point of diminishing returns.  From a number-crunching point of view, you are sacrificing your ability in other areas, or taking on weaknesses, to get a dice pool that will probably be overkill most of the time.  From a roleplaying point of view, you will be bored, both when using your specialty (because it is too easy), and when not using your specialty (because you can't do anything else well).  From a metagaming point of view, it's usually better to have a dice pool of 18-20 and fly below the radar, than to have a dice pool of 24+ and have the GM upping the difficulty of encounters to "challenge" you, and focusing on all of your character's weaknesses in other areas.

But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important.  The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game).  I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.

[JimJungle]

As has been said earlier that adepts have powers not replicable in augments. Just to name a few: Elemental Strike, Gliding, Freefall, Cloak, Commanding Voice, Distance Strike. And the list goes on. And of course the converse is also true. Plenty of augments that there are no adept powers for.

[baronspam]

But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important.  The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game).  I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.

The above is more or less where I come out on this as well.  If the characters are breaking into highly secure bases, frequently taking on numerically superior opponents, and just generally doing cutting edge black ops, you need more than nine dice in  your primary dice pool.  I am not the type of player who needs the absolue max, but shadowruners should stat out as elite professionals if they expect to be paid as elite professionals. 

[Onion Man]

But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important.  The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game).  I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.

The above is more or less where I come out on this as well.  If the characters are breaking into highly secure bases, frequently taking on numerically superior opponents, and just generally doing cutting edge black ops, you need more than nine dice in  your primary dice pool.  I am not the type of player who needs the absolue max, but shadowruners should stat out as elite professionals if they expect to be paid as elite professionals.

If you're capping out at 9 dice, you're making your adepts wrong.

[Charybdis]

If you're capping out at 9 dice, you're making your adepts wrong.

Wow... REALLY wrong! 

Don't misunderstand, I also believe that Augments are a better mechanical starting point than Adepts (from a purist CharGen PoV, and pardon the pun on mechanical), but 9 dice in any primary skill is just, well, poor management.

At the very least, you should be looking at a Single attribute of 6, and a primary skill of 4-5. That's 10-11 dice before Specialisations, enhancements (Smartlink/Weapon mod), Improved Skills etc etc.

The Adept in our team began the game with 6 Agility (Elf, non-Maxxed), Blades Skill 4, Custom grip on his weapons (+1 dice).
Without any power gaming or even Adept powers, that's 11 dice.

For Athletic Skills, he went a bit Berserk with Improved skills, and Gymnastics was easily 14 dice at CharGen.

I'm concerned about any Adept capping primary (or secondary) skills at 9 

[baronspam]

Nine dice wasn't a literal figure.  My point was that there was some posts that seemed to be saying "don't worry about the numbers so much and roleplay".  That is nice and all, but this is a game, and games have mechanics, the this thread was originally about the balance of mechanics between adepts and augmented characters.   I have never considered myself a power gamer, and I am not one of those guys who needs to have "the best" character.  But at the same time, I enjoy the mechanical aspects of rpgs, Shadowrun has clearly defined benchmarks for various skill levels (you can look up stats for a typical security guard, a Lonestar Officer, and elite corp operative like the Red Samurai, etc).  For a character to be a black ops operative for hire that can demand significant sums for their work (i.e. a shadowrunner) its pretty clear what kind of numbers you need to be putting up to be "good" at you main skills.  Runners tend to fall into that "always outnumbered, always outgunned" category, and its brains and extreem skill that allow them to carry the day.

[mozartprado]

Quite sure, didn't even saw the topic till now but for me the advantage to fight spirits and resisting magic is the most important thing that put him over the cyber dudes, even a rigger will do more damage than the adept, but can he enter with his helicopter, his truck, or his large drones in the place? Usually can't, so they rely on the medium and usually the small ones that are not really good for power... the urban samurai also draws more attention, MAD whatever, but the worst is that he can be hacked sometimes, he would be owned by magic or spirits, so he is like a drone that happen to have a body at his chassis... like a cheapo biodrone.

The adept can yet be dangerous, especially if the ninja style, but some juggernauts (if Troll quite obvious) also are nice, I like better ninjas, since stealth kills require not much damage and the skill counts more... and can defend from attacks that urban samurai can't even know about...

More than a Tecnomancer compared to a Hacker the adept can become better than the urban samurai... but the other way around... and hacker adepts are also better than mundane hackers sometimes, just will need to lose 1 essence point if wanna get the best matrix IPs but anyway even here they are not to be forgotten.

[All4BigGuns]

More than a Tecnomancer compared to a Hacker the adept can become better than the urban samurai... but the other way around... and hacker adepts are also better than mundane hackers sometimes, just will need to lose 1 essence point if wanna get the best matrix IPs but anyway even here they are not to be forgotten.

I could've sworn that Trodes worked just fine these days so that a Datajack wasn't really all that necessary for a Hacker any more. In such a case, a Hacker-Adept wouldn't even need to lose that 1 point of Essence...

[Medicineman]

He'd loose it for the SimSin Enhancer  or Math SPU or implanted Hot SIM but not neccesserily for the DJ....
.OK, when theres .1 or .08 Essence left over its cool to have a pimped Datajack 

with a pimped Dance
Medicineman

[John Shull]

Adepts lend themselves to hyper-specialization, and have some unique abilities that cannot be duplicated by technology.  Also, while sammies can't get magic, adepts can get augmentations.  Adepts with one or two points of bioware can be brutally effective, at the expense of losing some versatility.

Adepts are best at comparatively narrow roles (marksman or martial artist vs. overall combatant like a sammie), and they are also good at anti-magical roles, with powers such as spell resistance and killing hands, as well as the ability to use weapon foci.

They are actually very versatile characters - but they will come out second best if you try to build the equivalent of a street samurai with them.  Because that's not really playing to their strengths.

Empathic healing is not espically powerful but is definitely not in the Sammies wheel house.  The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.

[Kontact]

An adept is a ninja, not a samurai.

A good ninja will get wiped by a good samurai in a stand up fight, but the point of the ninja is to never get into a stand up fight.

Adepts still make great hackers/riggers/medics too.

[Mystic]

An adept is a ninja, not a samurai.

A good ninja will get wiped by a good samurai in a stand up fight, but the point of the ninja is to never get into a stand up fight.

So in other words: cheat...often. And, play to the strengths of your character. If you are stupid enough to take on a troll sammie tank with only a light pistol, you get what you deserve. Now, if you want to hide a grenade in his breakfast cereal, that's being smart! Because remember the only fair fight is the one you lose. I also believe in preemtive strikes and parting shots.

[Kontact]

If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin.

But the thing about a cyber sam is that anyone with UWB radar will see him plainly for what he is.

An adept with masking can walk right past security and kill at an alarming rate.

[adimar]

...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.

That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...

Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire...

Adi