[Mäx]

Hmm...you know if that reroll option is usable on soak rolls? If so, that could help me out. My dice tend to exact a price for a really good attack by making the character go down really easy soon after...all 1s on a soak roll blows.

As far as I know it's usualble on any test that didn't score 1 hit. (the rule of Six however do not apply to the rerolled dice pool but at least it gives you a second chance if you got nothing)

It's usable on any test you want, doesn't matter if you got hit's or not.
Your only reroll the dices that didn't score hits.

[Triggvi]

Here is something interesting. Under karma-gen Humans become a lot easier to make. The average stat under karma-gen is higher than for the BP system and the point efficiency is better for having mid range stats and karma-gen allows you to max one stat without extra cost.

[UmaroVI]

Not so much, actually. Converting to karma makes the more expensive races cheaper, and the upper end of the ability score table matters much much less. Orks and especially Trolls get much better under karmagen, because they get a "bump" up to high body scores that would otherwise be expensive.
Karmagen ability score values:
human: 10 karma (+10)
elf: 35 karma (+5)
dwarf: 45 karma (+20)
ork: 70 karma (+50)
troll: 140 karma (+95)

Compare to the BP values:
human: 10 bp (+10)
elf: 30 bp (+0)
dwarf: 40 bp (+15)
ork: 50 bp (+30)
troll: 80 bp (+35)

Meanwhile, the major drawback to being an ork or troll got lowered - sure, the ork doesn't have the option of getting that very pricey 6th point of logic, but that's much less of a loss when it's 30 karma for it. Trolls especially get far better under karmagen.

Humans become even more of a niche race - you need to have Edge 7+ (rather than 6+), or have really, really low strength and body AND willpower (like, 2 strength, 2 body, and 2 willpower, we're talking) or have 6 Reaction and ALSO 6 logic or charisma. That's quite the niche.

[Triggvi]

getting back to the topic of the thread.

My general do's for characters.

1) Play a character you can connect to as a player. Go thought the mental exercise of knowing the character as a person, what he/she likes and doesn't.

2) Think people not class/jobs/race. People are all of these things and more and more than number on a page.

3) Ask yourself if you were the GM would you want this character in your game. If the answer is no or maybe, seriously consider  rewriting.

3) Have a good edge stat. Edge is a but saver. 3-4 is good, but higher can give your character the massive punch when it is truly important. (edge spend before the role means all the dice are subject to the rule of 6 not just the edge dice.)

4) Always have some social skills. Even Conan had to talk to people from time to time. Social skills are a god send when doing any kind of legwork.

5) Always expect your character to pull his weight with the leg work.

6) Knowing first aid is helpful. Even rank 1 is good. Buy a Rating 6 medkit and you become a paramedic. "Clear!"

7) Build your character so You, The GM and The other players have a great time. Anything less is a waste of space.

[Triggvi]

Not so much, actually. Converting to karma makes the more expensive races cheaper, and the upper end of the ability score table matters much much less. Orks and especially Trolls get much better under karmagen, because they get a "bump" up to high body scores that would otherwise be expensive.
Karmagen ability score values:
human: 10 karma (+10)
elf: 35 karma (+5)
dwarf: 45 karma (+20)
ork: 70 karma (+50)
troll: 140 karma (+95)

Compare to the BP values:
human: 10 bp (+10)
elf: 30 bp (+0)
dwarf: 40 bp (+15)
ork: 50 bp (+30)
troll: 80 bp (+35)

Meanwhile, the major drawback to being an ork or troll got lowered - sure, the ork doesn't have the option of getting that very pricey 6th point of logic, but that's much less of a loss when it's 30 karma for it. Trolls especially get far better under karmagen.

Humans become even more of a niche race - you need to have Edge 7+ (rather than 6+), or have really, really low strength and body AND willpower (like, 2 strength, 2 body, and 2 willpower, we're talking) or have 6 Reaction and ALSO 6 logic or charisma. That's quite the niche.

I was talking about humans, bud. The average stats go up not down with Karma-gen. The nice thing is that if you try and create a min/maxed chummer in karama-gen you get a little boned. If you create a more moderate character your karma goes so much further. You get more skills and better stats and you have the ability to cover more than one role in a shadowrunning team. The karma limits for stats don't count the special ones the edge/magic/res.

Humans have advantages the are not expressed in Karma/BP. The racial discrimination thing, if the GM is using it, makes a huge difference in game. Blending is easier because the humans out number other meta's by several times there number.

Just a Note: I play humans more than any other meta. orks run a distant second.

[UmaroVI]

Humans have advantages the are not expressed in Karma/BP. The racial discrimination thing, if the GM is using it, makes a huge difference in game. Blending is easier because the humans out number other meta's by several times there number.

Except this IS expressed in Karma/BP. It's worth 5 bp (10 karma), if you want it. Whee.

What humans have going for them is the "But ~*~Dirk Montgomery~*~" factor, and some niche cases that get even niche-er in karmagen.

[Preacher]

Yeah...see I think this is a problem. Humans SHOULD be good at everything and a choice at least close to optimal for just about anything. Humans are the most numerous of all the metatypes, but because their game-stats aren't that good, in a lot of games they'll be the minority if not downright absent from the team.

No, they shouldn't be good at everything.  A good choice for some roles, sure, but not "close to optimal for just about anything."

That said, a lot of people don't play humans simply because its a fantasy game, and playing something other than what you are is part of the fun.  I, for example, happen to think orks are awesome.  I love the way they look, I love their various subcultures, and I love the way the rest of the world looks down on them.  It doesn't matter to me that they're one of the more optimal choices in the game all around.  I love my ork Face and Hacker just as much as I love my ork Street Samurai.  Even if humans had the best in-game stats, that wouldn't change anything for me.

This was a problem that was identified way back in 1st Edition when they went about designing Earthdawn.  And in Earthdawn, they gained an ability similar to what I suggested earlier in the thread; the ability to be versatile, allowing them to be a decent (but not "close to optimal") choice for just about any role they chose.  By giving them Aptitude for free and a choice of two Metagenic Improvements of choice, you get a similar result in Shadowrun.  It doesn't make them overly powerful, but it makes them a great choice for things like magicians or hackers where brains win over brawn.  But it also allows them to be a bit more competitive in areas other races dominate, too.

[Triggvi]

Humans have advantages the are not expressed in Karma/BP. The racial discrimination thing, if the GM is using it, makes a huge difference in game. Blending is easier because the humans out number other meta's by several times there number.

Except this IS expressed in Karma/BP. It's worth 5 bp (10 karma), if you want it. Whee.

What humans have going for them is the "But ~*~Dirk Montgomery~*~" factor, and some niche cases that get even niche-er in karmagen.

I enjoy humans as characters good, bad or stupid. You play what you like. I play my characters as people not numbers on a page. I don't see humans as being disadvantaged at all. A Troll maybe bigger and stronger than a human on average, but that doesn't make him a better character. it makes him a giant in a world made for humans. If you had ever seen the human characters I play in action,  you would never think of them as less than optimal.(Karma-gen or BP.)


I am ending my responses to this subject on this thread as it is off topic. If you want to discuss this further you can start a new thread.

Games are for fun, enjoy the experience.

[Glyph]

The karma limits for stats don't count the special ones the edge/magic/res.

I used to think it was that way, too (I assumed so mainly because that is how Build Points does it).  But if you read the rules carefully, the special Attributes fall under that Karma limit (375 for humans) too.  Human awakened tend to get boned in Karmagen.  I would actually recommend house ruling that special Attributes don't fall under the cap, because human awakened are usually the only ones who get boned by it.

Humans, though, do tend to come out slightly better in Karmagen than they do in Build Points.  A mundane human with low Edge can actually have decent core Attributes, and will be more versatile in things like skills/gear/contacts.  Metahumans are more expensive, because the exponential Attribute costs make buying their Attributes up more expensive.  You do save on metahumans if you don't buy up their "favored" Attributes, but that is kind of shooting yourself in the foot.


For character building advice for Karmagen, I would say:

For humans, usually you can have a decent Edge or a decent Magic, not both.

For specialists, don't worry.  You can build them, and they still usually come out ahead of what they do in Build Points.

For generalists, rejoice, because low to middle Attributes and skills are very cheap - if you don't buy either of them up high, you will be able to afford a lot more than you would under Build Points.

Knowledge skills will really test your resolve as a roleplayer, because you don't get them for free, any longer.

[Triggvi]

Every one including the people that write the character generators think differently. It is some what ambiguous in the writing, but it makes no sense the include special attributes in the cap. We can play grammer games with the sentence or go with what makes sense.

Humans can have both under karma-gen.

[Phylos Fett]

I've often wondered why the differences in the Karma and BP CharGen systems on the issues of Special Attributes and Knowledge Skills.

[Triggvi]

I've often wondered why the differences in the Karma and BP CharGen systems on the issues of Special Attributes and Knowledge Skills.

There is some debate as to whether special attributes fall under the half karma cap. The debate was won by the "not under the cap people long ago" The wording was misleading and somewhat ambiguous. No one I have ever talked to has ever used the special attributes under the core attribute cap. Because karma-gen allows for so many more skills than BP they just make you buy them.

[Phylos Fett]

I've often wondered why the differences in the Karma and BP CharGen systems on the issues of Special Attributes and Knowledge Skills.

There is some debate as to whether special attributes fall under the half karma cap. The debate was won by the "not under the cap people long ago" The wording was misleading and somewhat ambiguous. No one I have ever talked to has ever used the special attributes under the core attribute cap.

That makes sense. Otherwise things seem a little skewed.

Because karma-gen allows for so many more skills than BP they just make you buy them.

I'm just wondering whether people do bother to buy them to the same extent that the free ones are given under the BP system. I can see players balking at buying "Elven Wines" if they could get "Pistols", for example.

[Mäx]

I'm just wondering whether people do bother to buy them to the same extent that the free ones are given under the BP system. I can see players balking at buying "Elven Wines" if they could get "Pistols", for example.

I can't speak for others, but my main character build at least has a bout half a dozen knowledge skill and speak something like 7-8 languages.
But ofcource she's now days(after the changes to karmagen) a 1000 karma character.

[Triggvi]

I'm just wondering whether people do bother to buy them to the same extent that the free ones are given under the BP system. I can see players balking at buying "Elven Wines" if they could get "Pistols", for example.

When you already have lots of active skills at usable level it makes buy knowledge less painful. In most of the games I play in knowledge skill become important so I usually have a fair amount of knowledge skills.