[Nath]

Since forever, teh Tir has had a grumbly underbelly of mostly non-Elves, who hated everything about the Tir. They were sold on a place where all metas would be equal and everyone would get a fair shake to one where ELves are more equal than everyone else and the whole system is rigged. Since Elves compose the majority by *quite* a lot, and are in power, they don't see any reason to change things, so the revolution never really gets going. Oh, sure, there's a movement, but it's about as toothless as when naked protestors show up at a press conference for the Hobbit to protest the mistreatment of animals. People shake their heads, go, "Oh, those guys," and go about their business.

As I often out, one thing that have been overlooked so far is how early Tir Tairngire was established. In 2035, except for a very small number of "spike babies", the oldest elves (and dwarves) were only turning only 24. At its beginning, Tir Tairngire would have been a bit like if hippies had established their own country in 1970. A generation of young people who wants to change the world, separate themselves from both the US and the NAN, resurrect a language and the old ways, and establish a new society were social status is based on merit. And smoke Awakened pot I guess.

Compare to the oks and trolls, who goblinized at any age. They could be 40, 50, 60, with professional skills and experience. They may have had a social status before, and they lost it when they goblinized. Tir Tairngire. Imagine how they felt as all those younger elves were getting everything they were still denied.

Yeah, I can see why their children, the second generation, were messed up.

[Wakshaani]

And if you factor in an Ork population that has generations at 15, rather than the 20 that is generally used for humans, give it a couple years from 2021 for teh first breeding couples to drop, so the second gen comes of age in 2036, call it a new round in 2038, third gen comes of age in 2053, fourth gen comes of age in 2068, and the current, fifth gen kids, hit adulthood in 2083, well, when your grandparents used to talk about how *their* parents got screwed by the same people that were in power when you became an adult ...

That's fun, that is.

[Nath]

I disagree on the math. Ork do reach puberty before human. But while human women can be fertile at 12, and, in the Western countries, a lot becomes sexually active between 16 and 20. Yet, mean age at first birth in those countries still remains several years after that, 25 in the US. Society, living standards, and financial independence may matter much more than biology. Surely, the mean age at first childbirth tend to be lower in the poorer and less-educated part of the population, which in Shadowrun means orks. But as far as racial stereotypes go, mean age for Hispanic and black mothers in the US is "only" three years less than it is for white mothers (source).

Add : By 2064 when the regime fell, the twenty-something you would expect in a revolutionary crowd would be born between 2034 and 2043. So the elves and dwarves would be the children of the founding generation, the orks and trolls either children or grandchildren. It's just to clarify what I referred to about the "second generation" in my post above.

[Critias]

Everyone else pretty much tackled what I was out to say (and thanks, fellas) about the many changes "in" Land of Promise;  they weren't really in LoP at all, I just tried to wrap them all up after the fact (often years after the fact), because prior to this they were all scattered across multiple books (and multiple editions, in fact).

If anything, I think you can get more mileage out of the original Tir Tairngire post-LoP.  I tried to take a step back from the "Disney Wonderland," the metaracial harmony, the open borders, etc, etc.  At the same time, I was out to strike a balance between the old TT and the newer, more open and available for gameplay, country.  It's not my place to straight-up retcon things like the Immortal Elves being ousted, Zincan being High Prince, or the democratic election of Princes to the Council.  At best, I could explain all of that, work it in with the Tir as we knew it back in 2nd edition, and just try to make sense of it all.  As I told a few of my fellow freelancers when nervously showing them first drafts, I was trying to dial things back, so that the Tir wasn't (a) an unplayable "elves are better than you" zone with unbeatable security and Initiates behind every blade of grass, but also (b) unrecognizable from the classic Tir, because Nigel's seminal book is one of my favorites and I didn't want to wipe it away completely. 

So I was basically out to wrap up the ongoing "coup" stuff (it had never really been detailed, the new Council hadn't even been introduced, since it happened almost ten years ago), stabilize the Tir into a recognizable (but playable) form, and...here's the tricky bit...do all of it inside my word count.  As it was, I was already way over (that entire intro fic, for instance, and all the NPCs in the back, were stuff I basically didn't get paid for, because I used up MORE than my initial word count on the rest of it, anyways). 

I did what I could in the space I had, trying to tie up some things, re-reveal others, and introduce a new batch of Tir Princes.  I'm sorry if folks aren't happy with the eventual outcome.  I want people to like the stuff I write, but especially when it's something like LoP -- which was "my" baby in that I made the pitch to write it because I thought it needed to be written, just to try and make sense of that particular corner of the setting after it was whip-sawed around all these years.

[All4BigGuns]

Everyone else pretty much tackled what I was out to say (and thanks, fellas) about the many changes "in" Land of Promise;  they weren't really in LoP at all, I just tried to wrap them all up after the fact (often years after the fact), because prior to this they were all scattered across multiple books (and multiple editions, in fact).

If anything, I think you can get more mileage out of the original Tir Tairngire post-LoP.  I tried to take a step back from the "Disney Wonderland," the metaracial harmony, the open borders, etc, etc.  At the same time, I was out to strike a balance between the old TT and the newer, more open and available for gameplay, country.  It's not my place to straight-up retcon things like the Immortal Elves being ousted, Zincan being High Prince, or the democratic election of Princes to the Council.  At best, I could explain all of that, work it in with the Tir as we knew it back in 2nd edition, and just try to make sense of it all.  As I told a few of my fellow freelancers when nervously showing them first drafts, I was trying to dial things back, so that the Tir wasn't (a) an unplayable "elves are better than you" zone with unbeatable security and Initiates behind every blade of grass, but also (b) unrecognizable from the classic Tir, because Nigel's seminal book is one of my favorites and I didn't want to wipe it away completely. 

So I was basically out to wrap up the ongoing "coup" stuff (it had never really been detailed, the new Council hadn't even been introduced, since it happened almost ten years ago), stabilize the Tir into a recognizable (but playable) form, and...here's the tricky bit...do all of it inside my word count.  As it was, I was already way over (that entire intro fic, for instance, and all the NPCs in the back, were stuff I basically didn't get paid for, because I used up MORE than my initial word count on the rest of it, anyways). 

I did what I could in the space I had, trying to tie up some things, re-reveal others, and introduce a new batch of Tir Princes.  I'm sorry if folks aren't happy with the eventual outcome.  I want people to like the stuff I write, but especially when it's something like LoP -- which was "my" baby in that I made the pitch to write it because I thought it needed to be written, just to try and make sense of that particular corner of the setting after it was whip-sawed around all these years.

And you did a pretty good job with it. I really only had the one complaint (which I stated in another thread) which was the "dice pool" format for the NPCs rather than a skill rating one.

[TheWanderingJewels]

I have been treating the place as a mess much like the Romanian collapse after Nicolae Ceaușescu got it in the neck. While the lovely adverts say something else, the place is seething under the surface, and the last unicorns were eaten a while ago and rainbows need not apply.

While it is pretty to look at, it's also evident to anyone who paid attention that Tir Xenophobia is still pretty common and the local Geheime Staatspolizei is still running a lot of things, while the more democratically leaning sections control the TPF.

makes for interesting times

[Sichr]

I have been treating the place as a mess much like the Romanian collapse after Nicolae Ceaușescu got it in the neck. While the lovely adverts say something else, the place is seething under the surface, and the last unicorns were eaten a while ago and rainbows need not apply.

While it is pretty to look at, it's also evident to anyone who paid attention that Tir Xenophobia is still pretty common and the local Geheime Staatspolizei is still running a lot of things, while the more democratically leaning sections control the TPF.

makes for interesting times

If that would be true, Tir Ghosts are nothing more than toy soldiers. Ive been to Romania. Seen their military...not in action well objects, equipenment, vehicles, roads etc. That land is fucked up. And they cannot even maintain the nice image in media...

[TheWanderingJewels]

more like better press control than Romania. But to say the Local Security zampolits and the the army probably do not like each other overly much is a mild understatement

[Sichr]

more like better press control than Romania. But to say the Local Security zampolits and the the army probably do not like each other overly much is a mild understatement

Its not about press controll in Romania. Its about controlling everyone who ever saw that cuntry. They are trying hard for last 20 years to get back to civilized world, even became part of EU, well everyone here knows the stats...
I still wish them well...when you forget about highway gangs kidnapping and robbing trucks and cars adn crrupted cops who only look how to get something out of you, the people there are mostly really nice, know what hospitality means, and take care of you when you need to park your bike for a night and get some sleep. Got some really good memories from there...

[Critias]

Huh.  Just noticed ElfKrystal never really came back after anyone tried to explain some stuff to him/her.  Oh well.

[Wakshaani]

It's all useful; even if it goes to other people.

Plus, more Grimmy, which I'm always down for.

[Patrick Goodman]

You are a strange, strange man....

[Mirikon]

Can we get Grimmy to commentate on every supplement from now on? >

[Wakshaani]

Can we get Grimmy to commentate on every supplement from now on? >

If I had a wish-making genie, yes. Sans that, no, but he might pop up where you least expect him.

[Sichr]

Can we get Grimmy to commentate on every supplement from now on? >

If I had a wish-making genie, yes. Sans that, no, but he might pop up where you least expect him.

GET!OUT!FROM!THAT!CHRISTMASS!TREE!