[Glyph]

The other problem is that if you're not careful, it's easy to have people show up with characters that have disparate power levels without really trying. It helps to have a clear understanding of how the game balance works so that as a GM or player you can avoid that.

The trouble with balancing power levels is that it is hard to quantify versatility versus raw power.  One guy might be rolling 6 more dice in combat, but the other character might have several useful contacts, be the backup wheelman, be good at sneaking around and ambushing people, and be a natural leader.  You are better off making sure that all of the players can bring something useful to the group, and that the characters will work well together, than enforcing some Harrison Bergeron-style gimpage on optimized characters.

[Onion Man]

+1 for the Harrison Bergeron reference.

[UmaroVI]

Yes, but you can still have actual problems, like one guy putting all his eggs in the 'good at melee combat' basket, but still being less good at melee combat than someone else who can also do other stuff.

I generally prefer to try to help people improve subpar characters than limit better characters, though.

Eh, if you don't have the entire sheet, I'll just outline the basic idea of how you would make an augmented melee character, and we can just have a gentleman's agreement not to get hung up on stuff like "but 1 power point of other nifty things is worth more than 12 BPs of other nifty things."

Augmented route (Path A)
Name: Smacky Chan
Race: Troll (40 points)
Base stats: Agility 1, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Intuition 4 (70 points). Note he gets 5 base body to Bruce's 1, though.
Bioware: Genetic Optimization: Agility (45000), Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000)
Cyberware: [note: restricted gear used to get an Availability 18 cyberleg] Obvious Cyberleg (15000), Customize for +3 agility, +7 strength (15000), Optimization: Nightingale Feet of Fury (5000). Enhancements: +3 body, +3 agility, +3 strength, +2 armor, foot anchor (16 capacity of 18 used, 6700), Wired Reflexes 2 (32000), Reaction Enhancers 2 (20000)

total spent: 148700 nuyen (a bit under 30 bp of cash)

Qualities: Restricted Gear (Cyberleg), Aptitude (Unarmed Combat), Karate I, Muay Thai I, Tae Kwon Do II (35 points)
Martial Arts Abilities Chosen: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat, +1 die on Charging attacks.
Skills: Unarmed Combat (Cyber-Implant Weapons Specialization) 7(9) (34 points)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike (12 points)

Smacky has spent 221 points on this. He has significantly more points left over than Bruce, although he doesn't really have anything left to spend them on that would make him much better at unarmed combat because he's pretty much capped out. If he really doesn't care about anything else he could spend them getting better defenses (stuff like Trauma Dampener, very high Body, etc).

In the same situation as Bruce: note that Smacky (as a troll) has higher movement rate, although in this case it doesn't matter. Smacky also has 13 rather than 10 initiative, though in this case again either of them can go first. Smacky does the same charging attack trick, but he's using a Kick Attack with his Foot Anchor. Hiya!

Comparing die pools:
Smacky has the same skill/specialization, but doesn't have Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat): -3 for Smacky.
Smacky is a troll making a Kick Attack, so he has Reach 2. Bruce was not making a kick attack in order to use his Hardliner Gloves, so Smacky has 2 extra dice here (he's putting them in offense). +2 for Smacky.
Smacky has a 9 agility on the cyberleg he's using to attack, compared to Bruce's 7: +2 for Smacky.
Smacky has a Reflex Recorder: Unarmed Combat: +2 for Smacky.
Incidentally, Bruce should have Personalized Grip on his Hardliner Gloves for an extra +1 to hit. -1 for Smacky.
Smacky gets +1 from kicking with Nightingale Feet of Fury +1 for Smacky.

Adding it up, Smacky has 3 extra dice on Bruce.

Comparing damage:
Smacky's leg has a Strength of 13, for a base DV of 7. Smacky is using a Foot Anchor, which does +3 more DV on top of that for 10. Smacky also has +3 from Martial Arts, giving him a base DV of 13. Bruce has a base DV of 10 with AP -3, so Smacky is just as good at breaking past armor and will do more damage (2 more points, on average, assuming the 3 armor negated by Bruce's AP would have been 1 more hit).

So, while Bruce can kill the ganger's dead, Smacky can kill them somewhat deader. Smacky is also significantly tougher, with 2 more dice to dodge, at least as much body/worn armor (he could easily have higher Body and also more defensive cyberware), dermal deposits, etc.

Do note though that Smacky has a lower dice pool maximum than Bruce. When he's splitting attacks like against these gangers he doesn't care and it is an optional rule, however, if that bothers you, check out the character just below who does not have this problem. Smacky is mostly meant to show how much cheaper it is to be good at melee as an Augmented than as an Adept.

[UmaroVI]

Route B for a mundane Augmented character.

Name: Buck Norris.
Race: Elf (30)
Base stats: Agility 8, Reaction 5, Intuition 5, Strength 5 (195 points) [note: Agility is 8/8, not 7/7, because of Genetic Optimization]
Qualities: Restricted Gear x2,  Tae Kwon Do II, Muay Thai II (30 points)
Martial Arts Abilities: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat, +1 die when Charging
Cyberware: Wired Reflexes 2 (32000), Foot Anchor (4000)
Bioware: Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000), Muscle Toner 4 (32000), Muscle Augmentation 4 (28000), Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)

Spent 151000 nuyen (a bit over 30 bp)
Skills: Unarmed 6 (Martial Arts specialization) (26 bp)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike. (12 BP)

His name is Buck, and he likes to ... PARTY! He has spent 323 BP, a decent chunk less than Bruce.

Comparison:
Dice Pools: Buck lacks Improved Ability Unarmed Combat (-3 dice to Buck)
Buck has an Augmented Agility of 12 to Bruce's 7 (+5 dice to Buck)
Buck has +1 reach (using Kick Attack rather than Hardliner gloves) (+1 die to Buck)
Buck is not using Personalized Grip Hardliner Gloves (-1 die to Buck)
Buck has Reflex Recorder (Unarmed Combat) (+1 die to Buck)
Buck has 1 less point of Unarmed Combat (-1 die to Buck)

Net, Buck has +2 dice on Bruce.

Comparing DV: Buck has an augmented Strength of 9 (5 base DV), Bone Density Augmentation (+3 DV), and +3 from Martial Arts (+3 DV) for a total of 11 DV. He doesn't have any AP, though, so he averages only the same damage as Bruce (+DV ~ 3 AP), but has 2 extra dice to hit.

Buck also has higher Initiative, and with a higher Agility score he's better at Agility skills (like Infiltration, or using any other weapons). He also spent less points than Bruce to be marginally better.

Compared to Smacky, Buck is a bit more "Bruce-like" in that he's the same metatype and (like Bruce) has a high actual agility, making him good at other skills. He doesn't have as many extra BP left to buy other stuff as Smacky but if you really just want to kung fu fight people you don't care. Unlike Smacky, he doesn't have any issues if the Dice Pool Cap rule is in effect because he has a cap of 28, like Bruce.

[UmaroVI]

Finally, the Augmentation/Awakened Hybrid. I'm going to try to keep him as close to Bruce as possible in stuff like the dice pool cap.
Name: Bruise Lee
Race: Elf (30 points)
Base Ability Scores: Agility 8, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Intuition 3, Magic 6 (reduced to 3 by augmentation) (240 bp) [note: Agility is 8/8 rather than 7/7 because of Genetic Optimization]
Qualities: Restricted Gear, Adept, Tae Kwon Do I, Muay Thai II, Warrior's Way (35 bp)
Martial Arts Abilities: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat,
Skills: Unarmed 6 (Martial Arts Specialization) (26 bp)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike. (12 BP)
Cyberware: Aluminum Bone Lacing (15000)
Bioware: Muscle Toner 4 (32000), Muscle Augmentation 2 (14000), Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000), Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
Spent 116000 (a bit over 23 BP)
Note: 1.9 essence lost, reducing Magic from 6 to 4.

Powers: Improved Reflexes 2*, Critical Strike 4, Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3*

Bruise has spent 336 bp, exactly the same as Bruce (assuming they both have the same amount of negative qualities).

Comparing Dice Pools, Bruise again using Kick Attack rather than Hardliner Gloves because I don't know if Hardliner Gloves stack with Aluminum Bone Lacing. If they do he should.
Bruce should have +1 die from using Personalized Grip Hardliner Gloves (-1 Bruise)
Bruise has an augmented Agility of 12 to Bruce's 7 (+5 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 less point of Unarmed Combat (-1 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 more point of Reach (because of using Kick Attacks rather than Hardliner Gloves) (+1 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 less dice when charging (he doesn't have that TKD ability). I'm counting this as -1 for Bruise even though it is situational.

Adding it up, Bruise has 3 more dice.

Comparing DV, Bruise has an augmented Strength of 7 (4 base), Aluminum Bone Lacing (+2), Martial Arts (+3), and Critical Strike (+4), giving him a base DV of 13, and he has no AP. This is +3 DV (but 3 less AP) than Bruce. Overall Bruise has 3 more dice to hit, penetrates as much armor, and does 2 more points per hit than Bruce.

As a side note, Bruise also gets better faster than Bruce. They both have to Initiate to gain more magic, but Bruise's next point of magic costs only 25 rather than 35 points. Similarly, Bruise can later improve himself with cyberware upgrades (such as by upgrading to Alphaware Titanium Bone Lacing), whereas Bruce can't really get much better with nuyen even if he wants.

[Critias]

Just a few quick asides (so I don't get tangled up in more arguing or whatever, 'cause I'm really just not in the mood for it).  I seem to somehow be coming off as a guy that doesn't like adepts or thinks they're bad characters or something, which is -- quite literally -- as far from the truth as possible.  So instead of nitpicking at the character as he was posted, I'll offer up a few suggestions.

I'd look into Counterstrike, even if just a single level of it.  For a guy that's got a ton of Unarmed dice, it's hard to go wrong with for just .5 power points, since it's a great way to punish anyone who foolishly takes a swing at you.  If you're gonna be successfully parrying anyways, and have power point to spare, it's a fun way to get some really ludicrous die pools and stay focused on an unarmed master.

I'd also be sure to keep Critical Strike maxed out (it's much more efficient to increase damage than Penetrating Strike), and I'd take a peek at Combat Sense for any combat oriented adept, but especially one who only shines in close combat (because surviving to get in close is much more than half the battle).

And...why no Killing Hands?  If you're gonna be an Unarmed adept specialist, you might as well be able to tackle spirits, too, and occasionally deal lethal damage.  Elemental Strike can grow from there (replacing Penetrating Strike in practically any build), depending on how flashy you want to get, too.

[UmaroVI]

I'm pretty meh on Countestrike and Combat Sense, honestly. Countestrike is pricy (it's .5 per, not .25 per; at .25 per, I'd say sure, grab one level of it) and only helps against other melee people - but often you want to be closing in with non-melee opponents and targeting them first. The more good you are at melee, the less of a threat other melee opponents are to you. Combat Sense is mostly just overpriced, it's useful, but just costs too much for what it does. Once you have enough Magic to get a Way discount on Combat Sense, though, you might as well, because highly focused pure Adepts like this guy quickly run dry on good powers and have to start settling for meh and overpriced ones.

While we're offering more general suggestions, Elemental Strike (Sonic) and Elemental Strike (Blast) are nifty - not core abilities, but they allow for some quite good tricks. They do take a simple action to turn on which relegates them to fights you know are coming, but Elemental Strike (Sonic) basically translates to "anyone you hit is out of the fight" and Elemental Strike (Blast) lets you shout BEEP BEEP I'M A JEEP and punch tanks in half, which is always funny. You can pick a different element if you like, but I prefer ones that you can't get special armor enhancements against like you can with fire and suchlike.

[Critias]

Yeah, typo, sorry.  I'm half-assedly posting while half-assedly working on a paper while half-assedly packing for Gencon.  Since that's 1.5 asses I'm supposed to be using and I've only got 1.0, I'm slipping up in a few places.   

[Glyph]

A quick note: the errata caps the maximum cumulative DV bonus that you can get from martial arts at +3.

[UmaroVI]

Huh, never noticed that (we don't normally play with Martial Arts). You can most easily fix that by taking +dice with Called Shot for Damage once or twice, and then making called shots for -1 die/+1 DV or -2 dice/+2 DV (so they cancel with your bonuses) all the time.

Then again, you might want free actions for other stuff. Let me take a quick look at changing the characters.

[UmaroVI]

Fixed Smacky and Bruise; Smacky dropped a Martial Art DV to pick up Restricted Gear for a better cyberleg that gives him +1 DV and +1 die (2 more BP, but he had plenty left over), Bruise dropped a martial arts DV and the charge bonus, grabbed a way, dropped the inefficient Penetrating Strike, and grabbed +3 to hit from Improved Ability. Wound up being a trade of +1 DV and -3 AP for +2 to hit, not that great a trade but still better than Bruce.

Buck, honestly, I could do better. I'm going to redo him somewhat to work better with that in mind.

[UmaroVI]

Fixed Buck. He wound up only marginally better than Bruce at melee, although he's cheaper and got some side benefits for it.

I think the end result is that Augmented melee is marginally better than Awakened melee, but cheaper and gets you more side benefits. Awakened/Augmented hybrid melee gets you flat-out better for the same price and similarly gets you side benefits.

You could probably make a character generally similar to Buck who is an Ork or Troll and has the same dice to hit as Bruce, but does noticeably more DV. Buck actually runs into the problem of having everything that he could possibly get to punch harder.

Troll (40 bp)
Stats: Strength 11, Agility 5, Reaction 3, Intuition 3. Note strength is 11/11 and Agility is 5/6 due to Genetic Optimizations. 155 bp.
Qualities: Restricted Gear x2, TKD II, Muay Thai II
MA abilities: +3 Unarmed Combat DV, +1 with charge
Cyber: Wired II, Reaction Enhancers, Foot Anchor (4 essence, 56000)
Bio: Reflex Recorder (Unarmed), Genetic Optimization (Agility), Genetic Optimization (Strength), Muscle Toner 4, Muscle Augmentation 4 (160000, 2.1 essence, halved to 1.05 so he still has a soul).
216000 spent, a bit over 43 bp.
Skills: The usual Unarmed 6 with MA spec (26)
Manuevers: Same as everyone else (12)

Okay, 268. He ends up mostly the same as bruce in stuff like Initiative and whatnot, higher base movement, and he spent a decent amount of points less. But how is he at kicking people's heads off? That's what we're here for.

With a modified 9 agility, he's 2 up on Bruce. Troll reach is another 1 up. Kick reach is another 1 up. He has 1 less skill, and no Improved Ability (Unarmed), so he breaks even on dice rolled.

What about DV? He has an augmented strength of 15 (!) so that's 8 base DV. +3 for the foot anchor (the, incidentally, COMPLETELY LEGAL foot anchor, despite it being just as deadly as a cyberspur), +3 for martial arts, and he's kicking people's heads off with 14 DV, compared to Bruce's 10 DV with -3 AP. So same dice, but on average 3 more damage boxes, all for less points and with side benefits like faster movement and being tougher.

[The Dweller]

Alrighty, my friend sent me the original character sheet that had been finished just before The Way of the Adept was released.  The equipment could probably be a bit more organized in the document, but its good enough.  In the augmented examples, I liked #2 and 3 as mainly they kept the metatype as is (I meant to say if you had some augmented alternate suggestions to keep them 'familiar' appearing outwardly, which you did with two).

Alas, I tried the suggestions of some of those other adept powers, but the player the character was going to felt they weren't to his style of play.

Here's what we had in the beginning.  I follow up the stat sheet with a basic (from my memory) of what the concept & history is.  It should help to bring the overall character concept into greater cohesion.

B     A     R     S     C     I     L     W     Edg     Mag     Ess     Init     IP
3     7    5(7)  3      3     3    2     2        2          6          6         10      3

Metatype:  Elf
Positive Qualities:  Adept, Aptitude, Martial Arts 3
Negative Qualities:  Addiction (nicotine, moderate), Amnesia 1, Day Job 1, Enemy (Connection 9/Incidence 1: group, 99 members, district influence, most magical)

Skills:  Artisan 3, Computer 2, Etiquette 3, Gymnastics 2, Infiltration 3, Unarmed Combat 7 (+2sp)

Knowledge Skills:  Eastern Philosophy 3, Local Club Hotspots 4, Music Theory 4, Popular Trends 3

Languages:  English (n), Sperethiel 1

Adept Powers:  Critical Strike 6, Improved Ability 3, Improved Reflexes 2, Penetrating Strike 2

Tae Kwon Do Advantages:  +1 die Charging, +1 DV Unarmed Combat, +1 die attacking multiples

Maneuvers:  Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Vicious Blow, Watchful Guard

Gear:  Avalon Commlink w/Navi OS (Armor Case 6, Biometric Lock, Customized Interface, Optimized Edit), Edit 4, Browse 4, AR Gloves, Hot Sim Module, Subvocal Mic, 3x Nanopaste Trodes, Rating 4 Noise Analysis Software, 2x Fake SIN 3 (both w/Travel Pass 3), 10x Rating 4 Datasofts (Musicsofts),  Hypersonic Sound Beam, Cool Shades 4 (flare comp, image link, thermo, vision enhance 3), Earbuds 2 (audio enhance 3, sound filter 3), Voice Mask, Respirator 6, Micro Sensor /Directional Mic, Skinweb Array, Body Shop (500, 100/month), Hardliner Gloves
Armor:  Steampunk vest/slacks/shirt w/Softweave, Form-Fitting Full-Body, SecureTech forearm/limbs/shins/vitals
Nuyen:  3d6+3x50

Lifestyle:  2 months prepaid Low (comforts 2, entertainment 3, necessities 3, neighborhood 2, security 3, crash pad, network bottleneck, trigger-happy landlord) 2,000/month

Contacts:  Club Promoter (Corp Manager) 3/1, Fixer 3/1, Master Kim (Antiquities & Oddities Dealer) 2/6

[The Big Peat]

There's no reason why he should change to augmentated either. Yes, it would make him a little more powerful, but he's still pretty powerful already.

What he isn't though is tough.

In fact, I'd go so far as to state that for a guy who plans to make his living out of running up to people and punching them in the face, he's downright flimsy. One good hit would really ruin his day...

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm pretty meh on Countestrike and Combat Sense, honestly. Countestrike is pricy (it's .5 per, not .25 per; at .25 per, I'd say sure, grab one level of it) and only helps against other melee people - but often you want to be closing in with non-melee opponents and targeting them first. The more good you are at melee, the less of a threat other melee opponents are to you. Combat Sense is mostly just overpriced, it's useful, but just costs too much for what it does. Once you have enough Magic to get a Way discount on Combat Sense, though, you might as well, because highly focused pure Adepts like this guy quickly run dry on good powers and have to start settling for meh and overpriced ones.

While we're offering more general suggestions, Elemental Strike (Sonic) and Elemental Strike (Blast) are nifty - not core abilities, but they allow for some quite good tricks. They do take a simple action to turn on which relegates them to fights you know are coming, but Elemental Strike (Sonic) basically translates to "anyone you hit is out of the fight" and Elemental Strike (Blast) lets you shout BEEP BEEP I'M A JEEP and punch tanks in half, which is always funny. You can pick a different element if you like, but I prefer ones that you can't get special armor enhancements against like you can with fire and suchlike.

I'm never meh on combat sense.  But I think it is something you should not get a die or 2.  My first SR4 character was a troll boxer(augmented with bioware) and 5 points in combat sense was awesome.  Rolling 12 dice while taking actions other than dodging to avoid getting shot is pretty huge, there is a large range of damage you flat out avoid at that level.  1 or 2 points though and you are probably getting hit by random guard number 5 when you try to close to melee.  Sure prime runners or red samurai will still be hitting you, and once people figure out how hard you are to hit wide bursts will make you an easier target, but avoiding that short or long narrow burst from the average security guy is a nice feeling.

Counter strike is great at 1 point especially paired with combat sense, not good past that.  The extra dice to hit are great even if they don't come up all the time.