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General character building advice?

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Sark

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« on: <08-12-11/1655:32> »
I've been coming up with more and more ideas for character backstories, but I still don't know where to start with implementing any that aren't variations on the idea I've gotten advice on here.  Does anyone have any general tips, or better yet, a procedure they use, that they'd be willing to share with a newbie?

nojosecool

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« Reply #1 on: <08-12-11/1708:03> »
If I'm building an augmented character or other gear-heavy character (such as a hacker), I always start with gear first.  It helps to flesh out the actual concept better, especially if your gear is what defines you.

For magicians, I start by flipping through the spirit section if I want to be a summoner, or the spells section if I want to be a caster.  Then on to gear (foci/etc.)

For adepts, I go straight to adept powers, then to gear.

Riggers, straight to drones.

Face?  Maybe contacts, then gear/spells/adept powers.  Depends on the approach.

You should be seeing a pattern here.  Whatever the most defining trait of your character is going to be, I recommend that you start there and work your way back to stat blocks and skills.  You'll likely end up changing stat blocks and skills after you get the things that you REALLY want to have.  That way, the sacrifices that we all have to make to get our characters under that 400/300/whatever point total don't come out of the core of your character.  It comes out of the crunchy section, which sucks too, but at least your character will still be recognizable as your original concept.

Hope this helps!
This is not Grand Theft Auto, this is Shadowrun.

baronspam

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« Reply #2 on: <08-12-11/1803:04> »
I do a similar thing.  The first thing  you have to get your head around is that no character is good at everything.  Pick something, be really good at it, and be fairly good at one or two other things.  I start by writing down some notes on what the basic concept is and what I want the character to be able to do.   This could be as simple as "Professional thief, augmented instead of magic, combat as secondary skill area."

Then I start to make notes on what is critical to accomplish that.  In this case the stealth skill group, a high agility (both for skills and combat).  What else?  A thief should be able to open locks.  Locksmith and hardware (maglocks) goes on the list.  A good logic will be needed to back up the hardware.  So it looks like my main stats are going to be agility, logic, and maybe reaction since I want to be fair at combat.  Intuition would help as well with some stealh group skills.  Strength and body will probably be average at best, so ranged combat will likely be best.  Pistols and Automatics goes on the skill list, pistols for subtle/concealed, automatics for when more firepower is called for.  I consider defense needs.  Gymnastics for dodge (works so well with synthacardium),in fact maybe Athletics if he is a second story man and needs to climb, etc. and if I can find the points some unarmed (shock gloves, and a parry if it comes up).

Then maybe I look over the 'ware I want and make a wish list.  Muscle toner for agility, wired reflexes, synthacardium, some cybereyes, etc.  I don't fill all the details in, I just make  a wish list.  Note anything that might need a restricted gear quality. I also budget some build points for gear and contacts, because it sucks to get to the end and find you have tremendous skills and stats, but nothing but a taser, a scooter, and your cousin Alfonso's phone number at the start of play.

Then I go back and work through the actual creation process as listed in the book.  Pick my metatype.  Sometimes this is an rp choice, but if you have a sense of what your key stats are you can make a more informed choice here.  Build your stats, fill in your skill list, buy your 'ware, gear, llifestyle, contacts, etc.  Then add it all up.

On almost every character I have made I am at this point confronted with the fact that I am over budget.  But because you have made the choices in advance of what is primary, what is secondary, etc, you can figure out what you can do with a few less dice in, or skip all together to get under budget.

In the unlikely event you have build points left, look at your stats and see what might work well.  This character has a good logic for his hardware skill.  If you had points to spare you might throw in some other electronics skills, or some first aid to make use of that stat.

Above all, talk with your GM before making your character.  Find out about the type of campaign he is going to run, and expected power levels.  In some groups a total dice pool of 12 is amazing, in others thats a secondary skill.  Try to get a sense of how combat intensive the campaign is going to be, etc.  A cybertroll killing machine will be out of place in a Denver based spy campaign with heavy legwork and investigation.  On the other hand, that investigator/face with 12 contacts might feel underpowered in a campagin where ever session opens with heavy weapons fire.  Every character should be able to do something in a fight, something for legwork, and have a utilitarian skill or two to offer the group. 
« Last Edit: <08-12-11/1819:02> by baronspam »

squee_nabob

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« Reply #3 on: <08-12-11/2229:33> »
I think up something cool. Then I realize the rules make that cool think highly suboptimal. So I cry, cut myself and rebuild the character as something stupid but highly effective. That is my 3000ft view of character creation..

John Shull

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« Reply #4 on: <08-13-11/0258:04> »
I love character building and in my experience the most important step is working with your GM.  Once you and he agree on the concept and he understands it as much as you it will work out for the best.  For example, if you tell your GM you want a physad martial arts and movement master like Jackie Chan from the 90's movies its really easy for you to work it out.  You just drop in a backstory and go.  When you know what kind of fun your trying to have with the character and the GM is on your side about it, things simple up fast.  There are so many great concepts for characters that you shouldn't have any problem finding something fun to play.  Good rule of thumb I use is watch your characters focus.  When you put most of your points on a very limited scope of abilities it is like a Katana.  Very useful for cutting but not much else.  When you cover a group of related skills and abilities your much more like a survival knife.  You cut not as well as a Katana but cut and can do much more with the compass, matches, wirecutter, etc.  When you try to cover a good many related and non related abilities you become a Swiss Army Knife.  You can kinda cut and kinda do a lot of things and even have a built in toothpick but in doing so many things you do none of them well. 

Conversely there are some problems in making characters that arise you should avoid.  Don't let the math kill your character.  If the math says it isn't cost effective just play it anyway and don't worry about it.  No matter what you are not going to make a 'perfect' character but you can make one perfectly fun to play.  Your GM is grading you on a curve anyway, they are only gonna hit you with stuff in your weight class.  So do your best to make what you want and play it til its 600 pt legend.  Don't do the string crazy together and call it a character.  Make sure the GM doesnt hate your character because it just looks hinky to him.  Just because three or four advantages add up to 15 dice attack doesn't mean the GM is gonna allow it no matter how sick it would be.  Best advise on achieving crazy stacked advantages is to find a way to do it in game while advancing on Karma.  In game it just looks eclectic when you do that.  Lastly try and build in some unity in the character and the group from kickoff.  You don't want the team constantly tearing itself apart with an EcoTerrorist Combat Mage going to war with the Merc who used to work for Govt military every darn session.  Much better to have everyone sing from the same sheet of music from the get go. 

One last thought, also ask the GM if he has a concept about what kind of campaign he is wanting to run.  You might want to incorporate some of that.  If he is wanting a lot of Organized Crime you could slant that into your character and if he is wanting to do shadowy ex intelligence you can slant it the other. 
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.  --Sun Tzu

Shadowjack

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« Reply #5 on: <08-13-11/0736:35> »
One good piece of advice is to strongly consider buying skill groups. They are very cost efficient during character creation and many of them are quite useful.
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

baronspam

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« Reply #6 on: <08-13-11/1020:38> »
One good piece of advice is to strongly consider buying skill groups. They are very cost efficient during character creation and many of them are quite useful.

Sometimes this is true.  If you really want at least 3 of the skills in the skill group then they are a bargain.  But taking skill groups just to have them is an opportunity to overspend on skills.  At ten points per level they add up really, really fast.  I find that on a 400 bp character I tend to spend somewhere between 90 (bare minimum for the heavily cybered troll) to 130 points on skills.  I ALWAYS wish I had more build points for my skill list when I am done.  Skill points are precious, so choose wisely.  In particular, Firearms and Close combat skill groups are generally overspending.  You are better off picking the individual weapon skills you need, and it also gives you the ability to take your primary combat skill beyond 4 at char gen if you like.

For magicians be very suspect of the summoning skill group (does that have another name?).  Many people feel that the Banishing skill is a waste, that a skill that lets you attack one type of opponent only one way, with huge drain costs, is bad and overpriced.  You can always banish with a stunbolt :)  Also binding can be taken at 1 and left for karma advancement if you are tight on points.  Similarly on the Sorcery side, Wile spellcasting and counterspelling are critical, ritual casting can be put on hold for a while if you are tight on points at char gen (and what magician isn't tight on points). 

There are some skill groups that I do like.  The influence skill group is good for the face character, and being a four skill group is an especial bargain.  The stealth skill group has four skills as well, all of which are very useful for the stealthy/sneaky type of character. 

I could go on.  My rule of thumb is that only take skill groups if you would have taken at least three of the skills anyway.  If that is the case it is cheaper.  But skill groups are MORE expensive than taking two of the skills, and build points are always tight.  The value meal costs more than just buying the sandwich.  If you are hungry for the fries and the drink to, great, but don't spend on skills your character doesn't need to fill out the character concept.  On a standard 400 point character things are always tight.

The Big Peat

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« Reply #7 on: <08-13-11/1043:38> »
What that man said on skill groups, which are in some senses a trap.

That said... sometimes they're characterful.

Optimisation wise, they see little use, but in terms of cool, sometimes its nice to play the guy who picks up any sort of gun in the world and is just really good with it. Unless its a heavy weapon. Or an exotic one. Bah.

Come up with a concept. Accept making it simpler will make it easy to do, but come up with a concept. Then come up with a character you're happy to play. If you're happy to play a character who is not all about the power in a couple of things, and happy to play a well rounded generalist, more power to your arm (check the rest of your group though, as sometimes you'll do that and then sit there watching the monofocused monsters play). A good expression of group power is 'How many dice are they throwing at their core competancy?' In some groups thats 20. In some its 15. In some its about 10.

Nothing wrong with playing a tightly focused character. But it shouldn't be the be all and end all.

eshoup1

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« Reply #8 on: <08-13-11/1055:04> »
I would like to comment on the use of negative qualities.

I am GMing a group of players who are brand new to shadowrun. And all of them took no negative qualities at start-up. As a GM I love when players take negative qualities because it gives me something to work with. All of a sudden I have traits and enemies and mental disorders to play with that can add to the depth of gameplay and build drama in the run.

As a player I have made very few characters without taking at least 25BP worth of negative qualities. But that being said, I would always recommend talking with your GM so that you both understand how the negative qualities work and that you both are incorporating them into the game in a way that adds to the tension and role-playing aspect of the game.

baronspam

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« Reply #9 on: <08-13-11/1253:54> »
I would like to comment on the use of negative qualities.

I am GMing a group of players who are brand new to shadowrun. And all of them took no negative qualities at start-up. As a GM I love when players take negative qualities because it gives me something to work with. All of a sudden I have traits and enemies and mental disorders to play with that can add to the depth of gameplay and build drama in the run.

As a player I have made very few characters without taking at least 25BP worth of negative qualities. But that being said, I would always recommend talking with your GM so that you both understand how the negative qualities work and that you both are incorporating them into the game in a way that adds to the tension and role-playing aspect of the game.

Overall a +1 comment.

Choose carefully, however.  There are some negative qualities that are horrible beyond their point value (Uncouth, I am looking at you here.)  But in general flawed characters are more interesting.   And personally, I always want those extra points to work with.

baronspam

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« Reply #10 on: <08-13-11/1301:49> »
There was another general character building advice thread a while ago,

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4275.0


The Big Peat

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« Reply #11 on: <08-13-11/1311:10> »
I would like to comment on the use of negative qualities.

I am GMing a group of players who are brand new to shadowrun. And all of them took no negative qualities at start-up. As a GM I love when players take negative qualities because it gives me something to work with. All of a sudden I have traits and enemies and mental disorders to play with that can add to the depth of gameplay and build drama in the run.

As a player I have made very few characters without taking at least 25BP worth of negative qualities. But that being said, I would always recommend talking with your GM so that you both understand how the negative qualities work and that you both are incorporating them into the game in a way that adds to the tension and role-playing aspect of the game.

Very much so.

I also figure that most Runners could have a comfy(ish) existence is they wanted/were lucky, a valued asset in a corp/gang/national agency, in terms of talent. But they don't. Why? Because they got grossly unlucky, or have deep rooted problems, or have ties they won't abandon... or something.

All fine Negative Quality territory.

Overall a +1 comment.

Choose carefully, however.  There are some negative qualities that are horrible beyond their point value (Uncouth, I am looking at you here.)  But in general flawed characters are more interesting.   And personally, I always want those extra points to work with.