[Onion Man]

Okay, so I'm not the GM in this game, but it doesn't seem like there's particularly a place for player war stories...

The game kicked off with the 3 surviving members from our last session getting a call from our Ms. Johnson for them to meet ASAP at a pier 63 restaurant, my character, (NML died a spectacular death last time through), a former UCAS Marine Diver with a slight issue with following orders had already been waiting there with the Johnson.  The job was twofold, recover the golden hoohah and kill/capture the guy who had it, a shapeshifting, semi-chromed, mystic adept or magician (we're not really sure which).  After negotiating price and agreeing to it, I headed back to my houseboat to get my kit while the three of them went into Club Penumbra to follow the most recent lead they had to the chrome-mystic's location.

Everything smooth so far.  Legwork goes well, we figure out which luxury liner the guy is trying to escape on, get our face/magician a ticket to ride and rented a boat for the three of us to intercept and breach the ship after the sun goes down.

Here's where stuff falls apart.  Our face decides that he doesn't have enough perception or assensing to find the guy, and just totally gives up and waits for us to intercept the ship to do ANYTHING.  He doesn't have any way of stunning an opponent (a failure for a different discussion, not my character), he doesn't go about talking to any crew or other passengers in any sort of attempt to find the guy, and even after we breach the ship (2 shape steel spells to open the outer and inner hulls, then reseal them) and the GM throws him a bone and has him stumble into him, he just sort of lets the guy go, doesn't follow him into the public restroom, stays well behind him when he takes off for his cabin, etc.

Nasturally, when the rest of the team catches up with the face at the guy's cabin, he's long gone.  The battlegnome and I take off through the service corridors back to the cargo hold to find that the guy has rammed a hole through the hull, I pursue and with three well placed and way lucky rolled shots take him out with my Gyrojet Pistol.  By the time I pull him back to the surface he's way dead, and the golden hoohah is destroyed (one of the bullets pierced it's case).

After the game the face was sort of laying into the GM for him not having a high perception, and it feels as if he might be burning out as a player.

One, is it ever really the GM's fault if a player just gives up and stops trying to do ANYTHING during a game???  and two, when a player gives up on their section of a plan and everyone else does their job, and the plan goes off as smoothly as any (we did catch the guy and we did retrieve the broken dingus), what's a team to do?

The guy that gave up in the middle is the only one of us that really had any expenses (ticket, lost a pistol in checked luggage when we escaped, going to have to burn his SIN).  We're not making much off this run anyway with the target dead and the dingus damaged.  I mean, for a run that went off according to plan things went pretty wrong.

Oy, what a world.

[Fallen]

Hey man,

Our face decides that he doesn't have enough perception or assensing to find the guy, and just totally gives up and waits for us to intercept the ship to do ANYTHING.  He doesn't have any way of stunning an opponent (a failure for a different discussion, not my character), he doesn't go about talking to any crew or other passengers in any sort of attempt to find the guy, and even after we breach the ship (2 shape steel spells to open the outer and inner hulls, then reseal them) and the GM throws him a bone and has him stumble into him, he just sort of lets the guy go, doesn't follow him into the public restroom, stays well behind him when he takes off for his cabin, etc.

It seems to me it's a bit of a lack of initiative and/or imagination by a player who may not necessarily be very comfortable being "in the lead" of a situation.  Perhaps the player would have felt more at ease to do this part of the operation had he felt like someone was backing him up.  It may be that the player is not at all fond of taking risks and the like, being more comfortable being on the sidelines or at the back of the group.

I've run into a few players that would act or react in ways very similar to how you describe the Face went through (or didn't go through) his assigned part in the operation.  Maybe he felt there was too much pressure on him.  By stating he didn't have high enough Perception or Assensing might indicate that he simply didn't feel up to the task.

As for how this kind of situation ought to be handled, well that would depend on several factors.  Depending on how comfortable the player is with the rules and setting, it may be a situation wherein the Game Master (or a fellow player with whom the Face's player feels comfortable) might want to have a discussion with the player and see if they may need a few pointers.

After the game the face was sort of laying into the GM for him not having a high perception, and it feels as if he might be burning out as a player.

That could very well be the case should said player have demonstrated that kind of behavior before.  If not, then perhaps his being defensive (or outright aggressive, as your wording seems to imply) is to do with him feeling overwhelmed by the task his character was assigned.  Should that be the case, it may be helpful for him and the GM to get together and discuss the character and what the character can feasibly accomplish and cannot feasibly accomplish on their own.  Maybe that would help ease the player in regards to how he can face up to the challenges relating to his chosen role in the group.

One, is it ever really the GM's fault if a player just gives up and stops trying to do ANYTHING during a game???  and two, when a player gives up on their section of a plan and everyone else does their job, and the plan goes off as smoothly as any (we did catch the guy and we did retrieve the broken dingus), what's a team to do?

A little prompting, some suggestions, a cue or two, might go a long way with a player who seems unable to fully participate within the bounds of a story -- from both the GM, and from comprehensive teammates.  A bit of caution is warranted here so to be sure that the player doesn't feel swarmed.  What ideally needs to happen are things that may be said so to boost the player's confidence in both his abilities as a player and the capabilities of the character he has decided to portray.

This is little more than conjecture on my part, and may be entirely off.

The best thing to do, in my experience, when a situation like this comes about is to have a talk with the GM so to get their impression of the matter and see if anything can (gently) be done to rectify it.

At any rate, good luck to you and your group.

[nojosecool]

As the GM for this run, I agree that the vast majority of the fail in this one was due to the face throwing in the towel when it was his time to shine.  However, I cannot say that I thought everyone's legwork was done particularly well.  The parts they did were very good, and there were a lot of curveballs they threw me that led to some pretty solid rewards.  Although they had shut down 4 of their mark's alternate escape routes, there wasn't even an attempt to figure out what was up with the two remaining ships that the mark had to choose between.  Not even visiting their websites.  No astral projection for a good bird's eye view of the deck (which would have revealed a lot of security and little chance of fighting through them).  Nobody tried talking to the crew members that were disembarking.  The irritating thing was how the infiltrator in the group just kept blaming the group's lack of information on the group's lack of a hacker/technomancer. 

The slightest amount of legwork (the 6th world equivalent of googling the cruise lines' names, or asking around) would have shown that this cruise ship values privacy and security above all else, resulting in extremely high prices.  No cameras in the guest area, no guests may carry weapons (thorough scans on the dock), and the guards are armed to the teeth.  It was going to be hard to get to the guest area, but once there it would have been a cake walk.

I was shocked because this group's attention to detail and efficiency in execution were spot-on right up until it came to researching the place where the showdown was probably going to take place.  It was shaping up to be an incredible and nearly flawless run, and then all the sudden they were breaking into a heavily secured cruise ship half-cocked.

When all was said and done, it turned out probably as well as it could have.  With the little information they were working with, things turned out pretty good for the group.  The infiltrator managed to get into the guest area without raising any eyebrows.  The aquanaut and the battle gnome skulked around the crew section, totally screwing up the mark's escape plan (and stealing a bunch of his sweet spy gear) and only causing a ruckus on the way out (which is fine, in my book).  The infiltrator successfully spotted and avoided the booby traps in the dude's room.  They killed a legendary dude who was on retainer with S-K, and the party retrieved the mysterious contents of the document protector.  There's a hole in it and it's a little soggy, but meh.

I had fun, but it is kind of tragic to GM a group that performs a run that could be called an indisputable failure.  At least it wasn't a catastrophic failure... so there's that.

[John Shull]

The Face hitting the wall is not as much an issue as the player hitting his wall was.  When the player stops playing something is wrong and the GM should kinda see whats up with that.  Maybe take a break and chat it up for 10 minutes so he knows why Face froze.  The GM isn't at fault for the run not running but he should make sure players are playing as much as he can.  Conversely the Face runs into a snag should give the team a update along the lines of "Cant find the target, should we abort and go bowling?" or something.  They might could have suggested something to back to Face on how to proceed.  Grab the Captain and have a life boat drill and see who brings a case or something.  I am sure Face has worked it out with the GM and he will try a new slant on his character next game.

[nojosecool]

The Face hitting the wall is not as much an issue as the player hitting his wall was.  When the player stops playing something is wrong and the GM should kinda see whats up with that.  Maybe take a break and chat it up for 10 minutes so he knows why Face froze.  The GM isn't at fault for the run not running but he should make sure players are playing as much as he can.  Conversely the Face runs into a snag should give the team a update along the lines of "Cant find the target, should we abort and go bowling?" or something.  They might could have suggested something to back to Face on how to proceed.  Grab the Captain and have a life boat drill and see who brings a case or something.  I am sure Face has worked it out with the GM and he will try a new slant on his character next game.

Good post, but I disagree with part of it.  The issue was definitely that the player hit the wall.  However, there wasn't much that any of us could do to get him to start participating again.  It kind of came out of nowhere.

You were kind of hinting at something that other people have said much more explicitly.  To argue directly with your post would be overstating your position, so I just want to insert this caveat before beginning.  I am not arguing with your post, just a mindset that comes from following the slippery slope of this idea a little too far.  Again John, you have stopped before going too far.

There seems to be a widespread belief that it is the GM's responsibility to make sure everyone is having fun.  I think this is patently false, and incredibly one-sided.  It is no more the GM's responsibility to ensure everyone is having fun than it is each of the players', and furthermore, the GM should be included in the "everyone" who is supposed to be having fun.  The GM does have some extra rules to follow since he/she is in control of the entire universe.  This seems to be where the implicit "fun ensurer" title has come from.  As I see it, they are as follows:

1) Don't be a vindictive douche.  Players get to do this if they want (especially in SR!), but the GM doesn't have this luxury.
2) Keep the story interesting
  a) Challenge your players, but don't just outright throw them into too many auto-fails in a row.
  b) Reward your players
  c) Keep the story moving
  d) e) etc.
3) Be flexible, react to the players and enable them to have an equal part in shaping the story
4) Know the rules

I'm sure there are more, but these are my personal guidelines.  If someone is not having fun, that cannot be instantly blamed on the GM, as I've seen WAAAAY too many times on these forums.  Sometimes it's the player's own fault.  For example, I had a player jump out of a thundercloud morgan just before the group's rigger was about to monstertruck over bumper-to-bumper traffic while in hot pursuit of a target they had been looking for for 12 sessions.  The chase rocked, but the player did not get to participate because HE OPTED OUT OF THE CHASE SCENE.  Not my problem or the problem of the other players.  Can anyone honestly say it's the GM's responsibility to involve this player in the chase somehow?

I understand where this myth comes from, but it's seriously gotta go!  Everyone should be careful not to squash anyone else's good time.

One more time for clarity: John Schull did not make the point I was arguing against, he merely inspired me by touching on a related topic.

[Walks Through Walls]

nojosecool,

Good post, and as a long time GM I agree with most of it and applaud it. I am not arguing with anything you have said, but would like to present another point of view again as another long time Shadowrun GM. Maybe I'm in the very unique position in that I have probably run 10X the number of hours of Shadowrun to what I have played, (if not a higher ratio) and because of this have a different way of looking at it.

You are right that the player's fun shouldn't fall all on the GM's shoulders, but unfortunately in many cases it does. I liked your "rules" and am right there with them. They are great points that any new GM should look at and try there best to follow. You are also right that it is a slippery slope to start down to blame a lack of fun on the GM.

One thing that I thought of when reading your post is one of the things they say at the GM briefing at Gencon every year. Rule #1 make sure your players are having fun. Rule #2 have fun. Some times rule 1 and 2 are reversed, but these are the big two. Because of this I feel that the GM is the keeper of the fun so to speak.

Having said that I do believe that the players have a responsibility to creating a fun game also, but the GM has to bear the brunt of the weight like the God they are in their world.

[John Shull]

nojosecool,

Good post, and as a long time GM I agree with most of it and applaud it. I am not arguing with anything you have said, but would like to present another point of view again as another long time Shadowrun GM. Maybe I'm in the very unique position in that I have probably run 10X the number of hours of Shadowrun to what I have played, (if not a higher ratio) and because of this have a different way of looking at it.

You are right that the player's fun shouldn't fall all on the GM's shoulders, but unfortunately in many cases it does. I liked your "rules" and am right there with them. They are great points that any new GM should look at and try there best to follow. You are also right that it is a slippery slope to start down to blame a lack of fun on the GM.

One thing that I thought of when reading your post is one of the things they say at the GM briefing at Gencon every year. Rule #1 make sure your players are having fun. Rule #2 have fun. Some times rule 1 and 2 are reversed, but these are the big two. Because of this I feel that the GM is the keeper of the fun so to speak.

Having said that I do believe that the players have a responsibility to creating a fun game also, but the GM has to bear the brunt of the weight like the God they are in their world.

Not trying to split hairs but I agree with both of you.  GM had a good game running and he obviously was running them through it well. GM is doing everything he can do.  The player freezing was not really a game issue as much as a what's up with Bob issue, at least so far as it can be seen by me here in Alabama. I have seen people play a character who freezes, freaks out, or starts laughing manically and cannot stop but when the actual player basically 'drops the controller' and stares at me
I want to see what's up.  If I can't get him to get back in the game all you can do is run it as is and hopefully get it ironed out before next time.  Its not a fault thing but a stitch in time saves nine thing.  You want to fix issues when they have become big enough to notice but are small enough to be handled easily.  Still not the easiest thing to do when your running other players in a caper extraction and thus a chat after game is all you can really do.

(Quick thought that may or maynot be totally out of touch with this dialogue.  Had a player who thought I was picking on them once kinda give me the take my dice and go home manuver many moons ago. Dice were zigging where he was going for more of a zag configuration, it was costing him, and he boiled.  Fine just kill me and so i can go home.  After a long 'don't blame the messenger the Drow are trying to kill' you talk we got back in the saddle gamewise and it worked out.  So you may have a perceived issue witht the Face player who thinks his character should be able to do something he cannot and then camd the time of pouting as he just fumbled in front of everyone.  Not the dice fault, his fault.  All he can think to do is beg the GM and go stoneface.  This is a smart game and people fluster when it looks like they step in it in front of their peers sometimes.  Espically those of us who don't laugh at themselves easily when under pressure.)

I don't think anyone was wrong in the game.  Just learned more about each other and factor that DOPE into your next game.  Giving his character a new nickname based on that sessions activity could be a good move.  In shadowrun no one would ever live down field errors and nicknames keep those errors alive forever and hopefully have a sense of humor about it.

[JoeNapalm]

All good posts. I'd be happy to play in any of you guy's games, anytime. 

It is a group activity, and it is the responsibility of everyone to make the game fun. I've argued the same point in other threads (specifically when people have stated that the system is flawed because they are "bored" when other players are doing things).

Sometimes, though, players are just having a bad night (either in-game or OOC), or maybe aren't playing the right character, or whatever. When problems arise, it tends to fall to the GM, as the ultimate arbiter, to sort it out.

Which isn't to say that the party can't fail when they screw up (my PCs are famous for doing inexplicable things with terrible consequences) but if this player is "burned out" then the GM should want to know why. The guy opting out of the chase scene is a great example - the GM shouldn't worry about it, at the time. The rest of the group is still having fun. But he might want to find out later why the player didn't want to be along for the ride.

Just throwing my 2¥ in...I don't think anyone here is "wrong"...quite the opposite. I'd just want to know why a player shut down on me.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[CanRay]

...

You know, I just thought of something.  Does a 'Run ever go *RIGHT*?

OK, yes, I had one 'Run do so, but I was a green GM running it, so...

[JoeNapalm]

...

You know, I just thought of something.  Does a 'Run ever go *RIGHT*?

OK, yes, I had one 'Run do so, but I was a green GM running it, so...

Scariest phrase in a 'Runner's lexicon:

"It's just a milk run."

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[CanRay]

I thought it was:  "This is Overwatch:  The Johnson is smiling."

[JoeNapalm]

How about...

"[anything] Great Dragon [anything]!"


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Zilfer]

I think you mean....

Something something, Great Dragon.

Cus that's all you need to hear in a sentance. XD

[nojosecool]

nojosecool,

Good post, and as a long time GM I agree with most of it and applaud it. I am not arguing with anything you have said, but would like to present another point of view again as another long time Shadowrun GM. Maybe I'm in the very unique position in that I have probably run 10X the number of hours of Shadowrun to what I have played, (if not a higher ratio) and because of this have a different way of looking at it.

You are right that the player's fun shouldn't fall all on the GM's shoulders, but unfortunately in many cases it does. I liked your "rules" and am right there with them. They are great points that any new GM should look at and try there best to follow. You are also right that it is a slippery slope to start down to blame a lack of fun on the GM.

One thing that I thought of when reading your post is one of the things they say at the GM briefing at Gencon every year. Rule #1 make sure your players are having fun. Rule #2 have fun. Some times rule 1 and 2 are reversed, but these are the big two. Because of this I feel that the GM is the keeper of the fun so to speak.

Having said that I do believe that the players have a responsibility to creating a fun game also, but the GM has to bear the brunt of the weight like the God they are in their world.

Not trying to split hairs but I agree with both of you.  GM had a good game running and he obviously was running them through it well. GM is doing everything he can do.  The player freezing was not really a game issue as much as a what's up with Bob issue, at least so far as it can be seen by me here in Alabama. I have seen people play a character who freezes, freaks out, or starts laughing manically and cannot stop but when the actual player basically 'drops the controller' and stares at me
I want to see what's up.  If I can't get him to get back in the game all you can do is run it as is and hopefully get it ironed out before next time.  Its not a fault thing but a stitch in time saves nine thing.  You want to fix issues when they have become big enough to notice but are small enough to be handled easily.  Still not the easiest thing to do when your running other players in a caper extraction and thus a chat after game is all you can really do.

(Quick thought that may or maynot be totally out of touch with this dialogue.  Had a player who thought I was picking on them once kinda give me the take my dice and go home manuver many moons ago. Dice were zigging where he was going for more of a zag configuration, it was costing him, and he boiled.  Fine just kill me and so i can go home.  After a long 'don't blame the messenger the Drow are trying to kill' you talk we got back in the saddle gamewise and it worked out.  So you may have a perceived issue witht the Face player who thinks his character should be able to do something he cannot and then camd the time of pouting as he just fumbled in front of everyone.  Not the dice fault, his fault.  All he can think to do is beg the GM and go stoneface.  This is a smart game and people fluster when it looks like they step in it in front of their peers sometimes.  Espically those of us who don't laugh at themselves easily when under pressure.)

I don't think anyone was wrong in the game.  Just learned more about each other and factor that DOPE into your next game.  Giving his character a new nickname based on that sessions activity could be a good move.  In shadowrun no one would ever live down field errors and nicknames keep those errors alive forever and hopefully have a sense of humor about it.

I don't think you're splitting hairs.  I actually kind of figured that you agreed with us on this one.  I'm actually holding an emergency metagaming session tonight to address some of the nonsense we've all been seeing that unfortunately disintegrates RP groups if it goes unchecked.  After last time, I was pretty close to pulling the plug on the group myself.  There was a lot going on that didn't make it onto this thread.  Anyways, I've got one player (the face from last time) who doesn't seem to want much to do with the metagaming session, but he's coming anyways.  I guess we'll see what happens.

[Fallen]

I'm actually holding an emergency metagaming session tonight to address some of the nonsense we've all been seeing that unfortunately disintegrates RP groups if it goes unchecked.  After last time, I was pretty close to pulling the plug on the group myself.

Sounds like a meta-gaming session may indeed do you all some good.  I wish you and your group the best in that regard.