[Red Canti]

This "Sheepishness" when it comes to conflicts is something I foresee being very very problematic.
I'd advise either sticking to very particularly non-violent sessions (I was gonna say ones with lots of carchases, but somebody might tell them to pull over.) or introducing a character that drives them to fight, or starts the fight before they can agree to surrender.

[JoeNapalm]

In line with what Canti and some of the others are saying -

It sounds, indeed, like you need to maybe ease these guys into it. I realize you're running an intro adventure, but maybe the kiddie end of the pool is still too deep.
 
Our current group, for example, consists of experienced players, but due to the paralyzing number of options available in SR4, we ran several "Mock Battles" to learn the ropes and get a feel for what our characters can do. One of the players actually is running a guy made by the GM, because he was overwhelmed by the number of directions and choices in chargen...and he's been playing tabletop RPGs for ages.


With your group, I might either start with some small mock combat sessions to get a feel for the rules and their characters, or start the actual campaign off very slowly - their first encounter could be with some low level street toughs, rather than a set-piece battle. Their first Matrix experience could be in a non-combat, low pressure environment. Etc, etc.

Also be aware that one of the most important rules of GMing is the mantra of all storytellers: "Know Thy Audience."

Some people just vapor lock. My college room mate was a great guy, and we loved gaming with him (he never said much, but when he did, it was always hilarious) - but he was total crap in a crisis. At first I tried to force him into action - I even devised a trap involving a sign that read "Think Fast!" and a 20'x10'x10' falling block of granite. It didn't end well.  Some people have weaknesses, and you have to play to their strengths. If they're not creative thinkers, maybe an in-party NPC can help prod them along without being so heavy handed as a GM.  While some people (myself included) want to be the protagonists, some players just want to be the sidekick (or plucky comic relief).


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Cass100199]

Maybe they simply are not interested. Perhaps pulling back and doing something like a Doc Wagon team or Corpsec, and narrowing the focus of what they have to do, might be in order. You can always transition to runner's later if they decide to break contact.

[John Shull]

Maybe you could try working the story to be a no thinking solution.  Its not what they have to do but just doing it.  They underground in the sewer meeting a contact, stinky pete, and people from a distance start sending the lead rain from one end of the tunnel.  Pete runs in the opposite way screaming.  Describe the bullets hitting all about, the loud sounds of gunfire and manic laughter, and ask them what they'd like to do?  They should run and/or fight.  Just chase them through the tunnels, by a giant direrat nest the size of a Wineabago, and eventually out after they have figured out what the shiny things in their holsters are made for.  Rollercoasters are fun for the whole family when run this way.

[nojosecool]

I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?

When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.
[/quote]

Actually, Street Magic specifically says that you cannot see through walls.  Even windows are described as opaque.  This makes it so you can hide from a mage trying to cast direct spells on you.

This is covered on page 114 in the fourth paragraph under the subheading "Astral Visibility."  It starts "Determining cover works the same way on astral..."

[Phylos Fett]

Just a quick question, but do they actually want to play Shadowrun? I merely ask because I had a player once that turned up to a few sessions, and didn't really do much of anything - didn't want to fight, be part of the planning, anything at all game related. Turned out that he was just turning up because he wanted to hang out with his other friends.

[CanRay]

I'll repeat my previous suggestion:  Shocky-Monkey.

[Zilfer]

I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?

When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.

Actually, Street Magic specifically says that you cannot see through walls.  Even windows are described as opaque.  This makes it so you can hide from a mage trying to cast direct spells on you.

This is covered on page 114 in the fourth paragraph under the subheading "Astral Visibility."  It starts "Determining cover works the same way on astral..."
[/quote]

>.> now why would that be when you can just walk through astral walls right? It also hinders astral sight quite a bit not being able to see there's something magical in the next room and having to have line of sight. o.O'

Though I only have the core book, so i don't know about street magic side.

[shion]

Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it.  Think of a curtain of beads.  Or even think of a room with no light.  Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.

[Tagz]

Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it.  Think of a curtain of beads.  Or even think of a room with no light.  Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.

I try to think of it as a wall of dense fog or unmoving smoke.  Or whatever other shape the nonliving object is.  Can pass through it unhindered but can't see what's on the other side.

[Zilfer]

Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it.  Think of a curtain of beads.  Or even think of a room with no light.  Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.

I try to think of it as a wall of dense fog or unmoving smoke.  Or whatever other shape the nonliving object is.  Can pass through it unhindered but can't see what's on the other side.

Yeah well I think some of the pictures in the core book are a bit deceiving then because some of them looked see through I believe.

[Tagz]

SR4A p192 has a good picture.  Someone viewing the astral.  Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing.  But you'll see that the walls are there.  The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?

Anyhow, back to topic.

So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story.  They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told."  I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them.  I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.

So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink.  If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive.  It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.

[JoeNapalm]

So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story.  They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told."  I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them.  I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.

There is actually some validity to their point of view.

I'm not suggesting that they trust Mr. Johnson...but they are getting paid to do a job. One of my characters has the Mercenary Creedo trait. On their current run, the Johnson lied to them...the Merc doesn't really care, as long as the payday is still good.

He'll watch his six, for sure, but the bottom one is - he took a job, he is going to finish it...and if the Johnson tries to screw him, it's go time.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[John Shull]

SR4A p192 has a good picture.  Someone viewing the astral.  Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing.  But you'll see that the walls are there.  The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?

Anyhow, back to topic.

So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story.  They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told."  I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them.  I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.

So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink.  If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive.  It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.

If there is a specific lesson, like Johnsons lie, you want to teach your players I recommend doing it in game.  Play it out.  Maybe the Johnson gets caught and hands over the data on the runners for slack or he just doesn't like criminals in the know on his dirty dealings.  They were useful but their useful ness has ended as their threat to me has risen, etc.  Give the players some foreshadowing, Johnson got scooped up by corp security or contact mentions that no one really ever works for that Johnson very long before they have an accident.  Then he sets a meeting and the doublecross ensues.  If the Run crew gets scooped up and sweated to make sure they have no insurance against Johnson they may try to escape and have learned a important lesson. 
    I am a big proponet of playing out that sort of thing,  I am very story driven and while they always remember the big wins its the hard lessons that make them better characters.

[Glyph]

Do these two players want to actually play a mage and a technomancer, or did it just seem like a good idea at the time?  Because it sounds like they would actually be happier with a pair of straightforward street samurai, who could make the "just shoot things" tactic actually work.