[Zilfer]

Alright well should be interesting if I ever do that. Though i'm almost possitive that my group would just go straight through the barrier.

[shion]

The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*

Do you know where it says that any casting magician is considered dual natured and can be victim of attacks from astral space?

[wastedwalker]

Trying to find it, I remember reading it when finding ways to bypass wards and such. The main thing I found for it was to shut off all magic and Foci to make yourself "normal" then just walk through since most wards go for the dual nature people or spirits. A sustained spell is an astral thing so it attaches to you since you are sustaining it and it makes you dual while it is on, it is along the lines of astral sight and all that. Maybe I read it wrong?

[Critias]

I think you did.

[shion]

I think you did.

I agree, this would sort of break the meta-rule that things on astral can't affect others or things that aren't also astral.  As it would allow a non astrally perceiving magician in the physical plain to be attacked by spells cast from the astral one.   

While it may make more sense to claim the spell itself while being sustained is a dual natured object (like an active focus say) and thus the spell could be targeted from the astral plain, saying the caster becomes dual is something quite different.

[Charybdis]

The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*

Do you know where it says that any casting magician is considered dual natured and can be victim of attacks from astral space?

The Casting magician is not dual natured

Technically, neither is a sustained spell.**

However a Ward messes with magical effects (Foci, Spirits sustained spells etc) regardless of whether they're dual natured or not.

So in this example,
- the mage with a sustained spell is NOT dual natured and cannot be attacked from Astral space
- the spell effect on the mage is also NOT dual natured, but IS shut down by a decent strength ward

** N.B. Sustained MANA spells are a grey area. It's possible to for an Astral-only magician to counterspell a sustained Mana spell (Mind Probe etc) depending on GM interpretation.

[wastedwalker]

My bad, I think my mind linked the fact that spells have to beat to go through a ward went hand in hand with mages sustaining a spell needing to push through wards or take damage.

Our games have always been iffy on the magic side of things, with the one GM we had not always having the rules correct on how things worked at the start. Has made for a lot of reworking how things work well into playing.

I always saw wards as a huge problem for a mage, recently I have been reading some of the actual plays and noticed a lot of the casters would just drop all spells and turn off foci then walk right into the warded area and turn everything back on. Made me realize my mage walking around most of the time with no spells sustained might be a really good thing heh.

[shion]

So that means invisibility would be fine against mage goggles, or your mage panic room or whatever.  Assuming you succeeded on the invisibility roll against the mage, even if he can see you astrally, in order to affect you or your spell, he needs to target them on the physical plain, at which point he can't see you.  Problem solved    I think smoke gernades are a bit better in order to avoid counterspelling etc.  Or hacking non window rooms to have the lights turn out.

[wastedwalker]

Good venting system in the building designed to remove smoke, drones designed to pierce the invisibility spell *Yes they were put in the Spy Games book* or the mage can use assensing on the room. Here is the thing I don't get, it states everything has an aura and is there in the astral world "Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful."

If the mage in the goggles is assensing he falls under the astral perception field. This means he can see aura's and such as well as with an assensing roll see spells. Since the invisibility spell doesn't work in the astral wouldn't he need just 1 hit on a perception or assensing to notice you. Unless you are using infiltration and trying to keep yourself hidden then it would be an opposed roll.
"Astral Perception
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane."

Reading pg 191 of the 20th Anniversary edition. This has been a point of confusion for me since how the invisibility spells are put they work only on the physical plane and not the astral.

"This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception."

So all the mage in the box room has to do is use assensing and score a hit and he can see the aura's of the people in the room and start lobbing mana spells at them, correct?

[shion]

I don't think the MITB (Mage In The Box), can lob mana spells.  He can easily know the characters are there if happening to be looking astrally, but he can't lob a mana spell at them because he's astral and none of his targets are.   What I was wondering if he could do, is take down the invisibility spell from astral space, thus letting him see the intruding group via normal optics and hence start lobbing mana spells.

Good venting system in the building designed to remove smoke, drones designed to pierce the invisibility spell *Yes they were put in the Spy Games book* or the mage can use assensing on the room. Here is the thing I don't get, it states everything has an aura and is there in the astral world "Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful."

If the mage in the goggles is assensing he falls under the astral perception field. This means he can see aura's and such as well as with an assensing roll see spells. Since the invisibility spell doesn't work in the astral wouldn't he need just 1 hit on a perception or assensing to notice you. Unless you are using infiltration and trying to keep yourself hidden then it would be an opposed roll.
"Astral Perception
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane."

Reading pg 191 of the 20th Anniversary edition. This has been a point of confusion for me since how the invisibility spells are put they work only on the physical plane and not the astral.

"This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception."

So all the mage in the box room has to do is use assensing and score a hit and he can see the aura's of the people in the room and start lobbing mana spells at them, correct?

[wastedwalker]

See this is where I don't get why everyone says that an astral being can't attack from the astral. If in the astral they use assensing on the aura in front of them, they use a mana spell to use the mana in the world to attack and they are targeting a living subject, wouldn't that work?

Physical spells have to be cast in the physical plane, Mana spells can be cast on either but require you to see the target(s) of the spell. Since aura's are visible on the astral plane and with assensing you get information of the subject, why aren't they open to being attacked?

[Zilfer]

^got a point there, since you can see normal people on the astral realm why can't you hit them? It might just be a game balancing thing.

I mean you wouldn't want a mage just waltzing into your home and suddenly you feel sleepy. xD You wouldn't even see them coming. xD

[Naielo]

GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."

Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."

GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"

Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."

GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"

Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.

This is where metamagic is your friend!

Masking specifically might be extended masking im not sure atm.

see the ward, stop go down so you dont die, astrally project track mage down that made the ward, A sense him and then change your aura to match now you can walk through the barrier with anything active you want as if you made it.  (you make 1 opposed push through test with initiation grade bonus on your side AFAIK).

neat trick i got in my head after i got a few F8 wards thrown infront of me.

Naielo

[wastedwalker]

The only issue with that is if it is a time crunch thing, or if the mage that made the ward is behind another ward.

GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."

Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."

GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"

Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."

GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"

Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.

This is where metamagic is your friend!

Masking specifically might be extended masking im not sure atm.

see the ward, stop go down so you dont die, astrally project track mage down that made the ward, A sense him and then change your aura to match now you can walk through the barrier with anything active you want as if you made it.  (you make 1 opposed push through test with initiation grade bonus on your side AFAIK).

neat trick i got in my head after i got a few F8 wards thrown infront of me.

Naielo

[Zilfer]

A ward within a ward.... touche!

Question can you 'walk' through a barrier? <.<

I thought stuff like physical barrier or whatever stopped you from going through unless you broke through the barrier.