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What's stopping me from boosting my arm?

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UmaroVI

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« Reply #15 on: <09-01-11/1347:04> »
It is your racial natural attribute maximums that affect how high you can augment, not your own actual agility score. So Joe has augmented maximums of 9, and natural of 6. Thus he can customize to a max of 6, and enhance to a max of 9 (a cybertorso would let him have less customization and more enhancement, but would not let him break 9).

FastJack

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« Reply #16 on: <09-01-11/1351:57> »
UmaroVI's got the right of it. No matter what, a human can only go up to 9 Augmented (unless you get some improved attribute qualities, genetic optimazations and other goodies going). The reason they go up to Rating 7 is to account for Trolls and other metahumans whose natural attribute maximums are higher.

metapsionic

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« Reply #17 on: <09-01-11/1358:27> »
So in 3), with a torso, he could have off-the-shelf arms with body 6, strength 9 and agility 9, or any combination he wants, limited by his arm's capacity of 15 and the fact that he can never go higher than 9 no matter what.

If he gets custom parts like in 4), he can get arms custom made with 6/6/6, enhance everything to 9 without a torso (each is a +3), hitting his maximum while having more capacity for guns or commlinks and whatnot.

Since he stands at 9/9/9, nothing, not a spell nor a drug, can make him go past 9, short of the exceptional attribute quality or some other exception from other books.

Did I get it right this time? ~_^


baronspam

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« Reply #19 on: <09-01-11/1411:05> »
Also, in 1)  if you start with a 2 strength, you are free to add more than 1 due to things like muscle replacement.  You cant exceed the maximum of 1.5* your metatypes normal max for the stat, not 1.5.  times your current stat.  If you are playing human all stats have a natural max of 6 and an augmented max of 9.  its totally legal to start with a 3 agility and dump 4 levels of muscle toner into it, ending up with a 3(7) stat. (provided you have the cash, the essence to spend, and you have permission from the GM to use gear with that restriction, or a restricted gear quality).

metapsionic

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« Reply #20 on: <09-01-11/1415:07> »
Thanks Baron, that's what had gotten me so bloody confused. I thought the maximum enhanced value was 1.5 X the CURRENT value, be it natural or cyberlimbs.

Feels so good to have everything straightened out! Thanks a lot everyone :-)

I still have questions about how armor interact with cyberlimbs and whatnot, but I'll keep that for a separate topic. And I *really* need to stop slacking off, so consider this topic closed! :-)

Tsuzua

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« Reply #21 on: <09-01-11/1450:59> »
So you're close.  Here's how it goes.

Joe is a human with 2 in all physical attributes.  This means his natural maximum is 6 and his augmented maximum is 9 (6*1.5 round down SR4A 68) in all of his physical attributes (Metahuman Attribute Chart SR4A p. 81). 

1.) If Joe buys Muscle Replacement 4, his Strength and Agility become 6 (2+4) and he's fine.  If he spends 15 karma to buy his strength to 3, the total is now a 7.

2.) If he buys a normal cyberarm, then the arm's attributes are Body 3, Agility 3, Strength 3.  He can buy enhancements to increase these values.  Each increase uses Rating in capacity.  So for example if he got Strength Enhancement 3, his new arm's statistics is Body 3, Agility 3, Strength 6.  The enhancement uses up 3 capacity.  He can only go up to rating 3 enhancements though since he only has a meat torso.

3.) Joe gets a cybertorso.  Now, he gets a normal cyberlimb and gets Body 1, Agility 7, Strength 7 enhancements.  You would think this gives him Body 3, Agility 10, Strength 10.  However 10 is greater than his augmented maximum of 9 so his arm's Agility and Strength are 9 not 10. 

3a.) Our friend Joe decides to get Genetic Optimization (Agility).  This increases his natural maximum by 1. His agility's natural maximum is now 7 (6+1).  His new augmented maximum is now 10 (7*1.5=10.5 round down).  If he has the cyberarm from 3, his agility is now 10 not 9.  His strength is still capped at 9 however.

4.) Joe now looks into customized cyberlimbs.  He can buy up customization levels.  This allows him to buy up the values of his cyberlimb up to his natural maximum i.e. 6.  So he gets a Body 6 Agiliy 6 Strength 6 customized cyberarm (that's an extra 13500Y and +9 avail to the cyberarm) but all of this uses up no additional capacity.

4a.) If he got Genetic Optimization (Agility), then he could customize up to Agility 7 (his new agility natural maximum).

5.) With his fancy new Body 6, Agility 6, Strength 6 cyberarm, Joe decides to buy some enhancements.  Buying Body, Agility, Strength enhancements 3 uses up 9 slots and gives him Body 9 Agility 9 Strength 9.  Even if he gets a cybertorso, he can't go any higher since 9 is his augmented maximum.  If he somehow got an agility augmented maximum of 12, then he could get Agility Enhancement 6 and have an agility of 12.

On a related note is cyberlimb averaging.  If you're doing a test that only uses a limb (such as grabbing something or attacking with a cyberarm), then you only use that limb's attributes.  A partial limb's attributes only are used for this sort of tests, not for any other.  If you're doing a test that requires careful coordination of several limbs (such as running down a hallway uses both your legs), then you use the lowest of the attributes of the limbs used. 

For everything else (such as resisting damage), you average all limbs together used in the test (round down).  Now technically there are 6 limbs for most metahumans (head, torso, left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg), so you add all them up and divide by 6.  However very few people follow this including whoever wrote the cyberlimb example on SR4A page 343.  There's a couple of different ways you can read this.  The way that seems most common (at least I haven't seen much QQ over it) is to have the head count as a partial limb (and thus not averaged) and average the other limbs together (so torso, left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg). 

So if our buddy Joe has an body 7, agility 5, strength 9 arm, he rolls different amounts depending on what he's doing.  If he's shooting a gun, he uses his arm's agility of 5.  If he's doing something that requires careful coordination of the arms, he likely uses the lower of his two arm's strength value or 2.  If he's being shot he averages his limbs together (Body 7 arm, body 2 arm, body 2 torso, body 2 leg, body 2 leg) and gets 15/5 or 3 so his effective body is 3.  Now when you average or use the limb's value, or the lesser of the values depends on the GM since the guidelines are so vague.

Critias

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« Reply #22 on: <09-01-11/1527:59> »
I think Tsuzua tackled this one pretty well.  I was able to read it before I had to scramble to class, but knew I didn't have time to reply, and at a glance he word-for-word said what I was going to.  +1 Init Karma.

baronspam

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« Reply #23 on: <09-01-11/1537:10> »
For point 5 above, the way to get an agility augmented maximum of 12 is to take an elf (starting maximum of 7) and use one of several options to increase that maximum to 8.  Your augmented maximum would then be 8*1.5=12. You could use genetic optimization, as in Tsuzua's example,  You could take an elf and give them the Exception Attribute (agility) positive quality, giving them an 8 maximum.  There is also a metagenic quality in Runner's companion called Metagenic Improvement that lets you increase both the maxium and minimum starting stats for a charactaer, and is explicitly allowed to combine with Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization.  So an elf with all three would have a maximum agility of 10 and an augmented maximum of 15.

That means with 20 build points for Exception Attribute, 10 points for SURGE II to get the Metagenic Improvement, and 5 points for a Restricted gear quality for a REALY customized cyberarm, I think you could get a 15 agility in one arm if you started as an elf and didn't care if you could do anything else.  Add pistols 6(automatics +2) and a smartlink and thats 25 dice.

Please note, I am not saying you should do this.  I am saying you can do this.  Such activity can can provoke angst, cranial decompression, and ape like overhand flailing from your gm, so approach with care.  In many campaigns this will get you thrown out a window.

metapsionic

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« Reply #24 on: <09-01-11/1540:11> »
That was very precise and thorough, thanks Tsuzua :-) Would you also average the armor rating you would get for the armor (1-4) enhancement when you get shot?

Baron, I know all about customizing and min/maxing too far. Our previous D&D campaign had to forcibly end because we were level 13 GODS and the DM was tired of trying to find tiny tiny cracks in our collective armor without one-shot killing someone. While I appreciate your info, I won't make use of it :-P

baronspam

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« Reply #25 on: <09-01-11/1541:05> »
I think Tsuzua tackled this one pretty well.  I was able to read it before I had to scramble to class, but knew I didn't have time to reply, and at a glance he word-for-word said what I was going to.  +1 Init Karma.

Yes, clear, complete, and well worded.  +1 and get your resume in for SR5.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #26 on: <09-01-11/1546:37> »
Cyberlimb armor stacks fully with worn armor.

Most GMs will smack you if you put armor on hands and feet. I am of the opinion that armor on lower arms/legs or full limbs is fine. Some people think that any cyberlimb armor at all is cheese. YMMV.

If you're interested in seeing some of the character types you can make by using cyberlimbs, take a look at my sig and look at the Ronin, Negotiator, or Mercenary Rigger for Cyberarm of Awesome users, and the Bad Enough Trog for a robocop-style tin man.

Glyph

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« Reply #27 on: <09-04-11/0408:08> »
One of the things that makes cyberzombies so dangerous is that their Attribute maximum is raised by one for each point of negative Essence.  So a human cyberzombie with an Essence of -4 would have an Attribute maximum of 10, and an augmented maximum of 15, for his physical Attributes.  So he could get 10/10/10 customized cyberarms, then enhance them up to 15 (assuming a cybertorso, which is usually a good assumption for a cyberzombie).

baronspam

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« Reply #28 on: <09-04-11/1002:16> »
So as not to confuse the OP, cyberzombies are an option presented in the Augmentation book that is designed primarily for NPCs that lets an individual take their essence negative and survive,  It screws them up 7 ways til sunday. Its not a rule that is balanced against other pc options and the drawbacks are massive, so most (sane) GMs don't allow you to play one.  It was more intended for building of epic villains, extreme one-on-group combat challenges, that kind of thing.

rasmusnicolaj

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« Reply #29 on: <09-07-11/1050:43> »
That means with 20 build points for Exception Attribute, 10 points for SURGE II to get the Metagenic Improvement, and 5 points for a Restricted gear quality for a REALY customized cyberarm, I think you could get a 15 agility in one arm if you started as an elf and didn't care if you could do anything else.  Add pistols 6(automatics +2) and a smartlink and thats 25 dice.

Just to make it clear for me, how do you get to 15 agility in the arm?
I can understand how you can improve it to 10 with customization as that is the elfs natural agility. But to raise it above 10 don't you have to use enchantments, and those are limited to 3 without a cybertorso. So the arms should be caped at 13 in agility.
Or am I missing something??

Oh, and why not go all in and give the dude Aptitude (Pistols) for an extra die  ::)

And I think Metagenetic Improvement cost 20 BP but that is a minor detail.

Regards
Rasmus
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