[Comely]

So I have read through these forums a bunch trying to find out if I could make a technomancer hacker who isnt useless in the meat.  The useful archetypes have two technomancers that rely on rigging for combat and I would like to make a technomancer who isnt.  How badly would I suffer with only 5 resonance?  Is Having low edge horrible?  The only way I can think of to make one work is to use cram for initiative passes and get an ok agi and reaction with a specialization and then I could get a machine sprite to assist in the operation of the gun.

But I would like the advice of those who have played technomancers before.

[UmaroVI]

In general, you will never, ever be good at meatspace combat as a technomancer. The way to be OK at meatspace combat as a technomancer is to be a Logic stream technomancer, implant yourself with a Cyberarm with high Agility, PuSHeD, and Cerebral Booster (you'll need some Biocompatability/alphawaring to get it all in under 1 essence), and (as you predicted) use Cram/Jazz for IPs. You can eventually get an echo that lets you get bonus meatspace IPs called Acceleration.

The result will be a techomancer who's worse than a hacker/street samurai combo at fighting, but better than any hacker at hacking - while still less good at hacking than a "pure" technomancer. It's certainly a viable way to run, albeit a kind of finickity one in that there's little room for customization because it really only works in a very particular, very points-tight way.

If what you want to be is a technomancer who's OK at "in person" combat, that's the way to go. If you want a more balanced meatspace/hacking combo, though, you really do want to be a mundane hacker/street samurai combo.

[Valashar]

Or you could just be patient and use your karma to submerge four times (make sure to use the various means of discounting the cost). First echo: biowire (acts as a skillwire implant with a rating equal to your submersion grade, and threading can be used to mimic skillsofts either temporarily or permanently with karma). Second through fourth echo: Acceleration (requires biowire, acts as wired reflexes). At this point, you can duplicate any skill that a skillsoft is available for and have +3 Reaction and 4 meatspace IP. And any skillsoft that you choose to pay karma for to make it permanent is then improved as a comples form, not a skill (just remember that you either can't use edge with them or you have to thread them with the program option that allows limited edge use). After the fourth submersion it's easier to buy echoes as the cost is a flat 15 karma instead of the increasing cost of submersion. The echo that reduces the penalty for sustaining threaded CFs is a good one, as is e-sense. Skinlink is highly useful in that you can use it to hack a slaved device directly through physical contact, and resonance trodes have their uses in subduing people you touch (handshake becomes a quick knock-out IC attack).

It's not really possible for a technomancer to START as someone who is great at meatspace combat. But they don't have to be as good as a sammy by themselves, it's not what they're meant to do as a primary use. Either be patient and let the character develop, or consider if you really want to play a technomancer at all.

[Comely]

Thanks for the advice, I dont care about being good at combat just passable.  What I think I will do is just make a technomancer with a single drone that I can hide for combat until I can get acceleration.  At char gen all I will worry about is not having super terrible stats.  I dont really want to have the one super cyber arm because I find it a little cheesey.  I think I will just be simple and adapt it from Umaro's elf, but that is another question should I stay elf or should I go with something else with more of a stat bonus?  I want to have ok physical stats so I can just get biowires and acceleration to do the rest.

[UmaroVI]

If you plan to eventually care about meatspace combat, but don't want to use cyberware, you're probably better off adapting the orc technomancer (the Info Savant) - Intuition is very important if you care about fighting, and you probably want the bonus body.

If by "passable" you mean "like 8-ish dice to shoot people" then yeah, you can totally get to there eventually.

[Comely]

Well 8 dice is easy to get to, your elf could get that with minor modification 3 agi + 1 skill +2 specialization + smart gun + machine sprite.

I broke down and started looking at augmentation. You said only one specific build works, you wouldn't have that build available to look at would you?

[Comely]

Heres my attempt at a augmented Technomancer with 25 bp left and no equipment bough other then augmentation but there is still 25k left for armour and guns

Dwarf
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 6 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 10
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 1 (2)
REA: 4
STR: 3
CHA: 3
INT: 3
LOG: 5 (7)
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
RES: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.05
Initiative:                7
IP:                        1
Matrix Initiative:         7
Matrix IP:                 3
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Compiling                  : 4                      Pool: 9
Computer                   : 3                      Pool: 11
Data Search                : 3                      Pool: 11
Electronic Warfare         : 1                      Pool: 9
Hacking                    : 6                      Pool: 14
Hardware                   : 3                      Pool: 11
Infiltration               : 1                      Pool: 3
Pistols                    : 4                      Pool: 6
Registering                : 4                      Pool: 9
Software                   : 3                      Pool: 11
*electronics bought as a group

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Stimulant)
Biocompatability (Cyberware)
In Debt (30,000¥)
Technomancer

== Complex Forms ==
(Tradition: , Resist Fading with )
Analyze Rating: 5
Command Rating: 5
Disarm Rating: 5
Exploit Rating: 5 (Mute)
Spoof Rating: 5
Stealth Rating: 5

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Enhanced Protein Exchange, PuSHeD
Obvious Full Arm (BOD 3, AGI 9, STR 3) (Right)
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3

[squee_nabob]

I’m still very slowly working on my guide to TMs (Other things to do than write all the time). In it I detail the logic-based TM. Umaro has it right, that they are more matrix-focused than a streetsam/hacker, but not as matrix focused as a 6 resonance TM. I dislike them because it feels like taking the worst of both roads, but I will help you do it.

Here is a spoiler from my TM guide (it goes into more detail on skills, stats, etc but this is just a basic explanation):


*Warning, suboptimal build*

If you absolutely want to play a cybered technomancer however (and don’t mind that other TMs will laugh at you), here is how it is done:
•   Logic-based stream
•   Cerebral Boosters
Cerebral Boosters give you + Logic, which works for fade. If you don’t have at least a 4 resonance after ware, you are better off as a mundane hacker. With a 4 resonance (hopefully 5), you can still thread to 8 (or 10) rating complex forms. Besides the fade resist, logic helps you very little as a TM. You cannot be a face like a Charisma TM, and you don’t add it to initiative like an Intuition TM. The extra subscription slots are nice, but not needed.

Use drugs to get extra meat initiative, and still do your matrix stuff in VR. After several submersions, you will suck less. This build is for people who absolutely do not want to stay in a rigger cocoon and don’t mind improving meat-world abilities at the cost of their Matrix ones. Because you are already playing a TM (who are dedicated matrix specialists), you are really giving up your best feature for little gain. To reiterate, this build is not good at the start, gets better with submersions, but is always going to be worse at meat-world than TMs who can stay in their drones, and all meat-world specialists.

Best Stream: Sourcerors


To look at your build:
Be an orc, not a dwarf (cheaper), I’d look into ditching more of your stats (charisma only helps to register more sprites for example. I’d dump Infiltration 1 and biowires it later. Also “In Debt” isn’t missions legal if you care about that. You may want to switch from pistols to automatics, and get a cyber arm gyromount. That way you can use wide bursts to give people -5 to their reaction tests. 

[UmaroVI]

Orks have the Logic cap lowered, so I think Dwarf is not that bad of a choice, squee.

If you care about Strength enough to want 3 strength over 2 or 1 strength (or you just like being short), stay dwarf. If you would rather have less strength and more points, go human, keep the same stats other than strength, and save points.

On the whole I think your setup is basically fine, I would consider dropping Infiltration 1 and Biowire-ing it later as Squee suggested.

I would really want more body if you plan on meatspace fighting, so you don't get killed. I would fill out the space in your cyberarm with Body Enhancement 3, Armor Enhancement 3 (have to start with 2 at chargen and then upgrade), and a Cyber Holdout Pistol, and [1] of whatever. Also, customize yourself +2 more body onto that arm. That gets your averaged body up to 4 so you can wear more armor, and gets you decent armor from the arm itself, so you are much less likely to die.

If you can shake up the points, Electronics 4 is probably a good idea - it's 10 bp now, or 20 karma later.

If this were my character, the changes I would make would be:
Go human, drop to Strength 1 (saves 15 points)
Drop Infiltration and just accept that you suck at this for now - if there's a sneaky-sneaky job, you're going to be doing matrix work, hopefully (saves 4 points)
Electronics 4 (spends 10 points)
-1 Charisma, +1 Reaction (0 points net) [because it's 15 points to buy Charisma 3 later if you decide you need the third registered sprite, whereas 25 to buy Reaction 5 later]
9 points for 45k more gear, which should be enough for some good pistols, the arm upgrades mentioned above, armor, sensory gear, and the other "basics." If you have spare, specialize some skills at chargen.

[Comely]

So after reading this I think I will wait until I find out how combat heavy my companions are and if we need a face.  If we do then I will just suck in the meat world if we dont then I will have to think about it some more I would go with the changes Umaro suggested but since squee pointed out that logic based Technomancers are the worst of all technomancers is kinda disappointing so maybe I will have to consider rigging even though it doesnt have the same coolness factor in my mind.

Thanks for the help

[UmaroVI]

I think Squee is a little harsh on Logic technos, and this is a perfectly good build. Willpower technos are the ones who cry themselves to sleep; logic technos just sacrifice specialization for versatility, whereas technos are already sacrificing versatility for specialization.

[squee_nabob]

 Squee is only harsh on logic technos because he doesn’t want people to take them under a false illusion. Technomancers are (by their nature) specialized matrix characters. This is in contrast to an AR hacker/street sam. It is my opinion that going logic TM for an extra handful of dice to shoot people is less effective than going intuition or charisma TM and using drones instead. I’ve taken a TM up to Prime Runner and been able to use a drone in every fight but two (one time we were ambushed in a mall where the NPCs could walk past security with AK-97s, the other was in the metaplanes).

Logic TMs are (as I said) the middle ground between other TMs and AR Hacker/Street Sams. Shadowrun is a game of specialists, so being a generalist is often not valuable. If a better TM is on the team, you will end up on the side lines for some matrix activities.

[kirk]

Squee is only harsh on logic technos because he doesn’t want people to take them under a false illusion. Technomancers are (by their nature) specialized matrix characters. This is in contrast to an AR hacker/street sam. It is my opinion that going logic TM for an extra handful of dice to shoot people is less effective than going intuition or charisma TM and using drones instead. I’ve taken a TM up to Prime Runner and been able to use a drone in every fight but two (one time we were ambushed in a mall where the NPCs could walk past security with AK-97s, the other was in the metaplanes).

Logic TMs are (as I said) the middle ground between other TMs and AR Hacker/Street Sams. Shadowrun is a game of specialists, so being a generalist is often not valuable. If a better TM is on the team, you will end up on the side lines for some matrix activities.

A gimmick I sometimes bring is to add a pilot(1) to a smartgun for 1000 Nuyen. It becomes a drone. By preference I choose something that can fire bursts since using command+gunnery is a complex action anyway, but it's still relatively inexpensive and non-obvious.