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Fiddling with Run payouts... Yes... that topic again.

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imperialus

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« on: <09-21-11/1219:20> »
Ok... one of the biggest challenges that Shadowrun GM's seem to come across is creating a Nuyen Karma balance when awarding PC's. We typically see topics on it every couple of weeks here. Award too much Nuyen and Street Sams get the short stick, too much cash and you'll see PC's blowing money on high lifestyles because unless you are a rigger or a street sam you've got nothing worthwhile to spend your cash on...

Not only that but big run payouts really limits who you can offer jobs from. If the PC's won't get out of bed for less than 20K each, then who the heck can afford to hire them? You're pretty much stuck with offering jobs from Corps and Organized Crime syndicates. Unless you totally handwave the funds that other people might have available there is zero grey area for the PC's to get hired by a squatter community being menaced by gangs, or a down on his luck reporter who needs paydata for a big scoop, or anything like that... Why would the PC's even do a run as a favor for a friend if it meant they were getting paid peanuts? Hand-waving it gets pretty ridiculous too. I remember the old adventure Dark Angel where the PC's were offered one million nuyen by DA's girlfriend... Seriously, the guy hadn't even released an album yet... How the heck was the girlfriend of a supposedly struggling rock start supposed to scrape that kind of money together?

Now I've mentioned on here several times in the past that the Nuyen Karma ratio that I've found works well is approximately 5000 nuyen for every karma. This means that by the time a mage has accumulated 20ish karma for an initiation, the Street Sam has about 100K to upgrade his ware with. For a long time I sort of left the ratio at this and was happy with it... it worked... sort of, but I ran into the second problem of there being too much cash floating around. I wanted my PC's to scrimp and save... worry about how they are going to make rent on next months low lifestyle, remind them that they are the underclass, subhuman trash, dreaming of the big score that could set them free and let them live the high life on some nice tropical island somewhere... It just didn't jive with the fact that after 4 or 5 runs their bank accounts would be sitting and 80,000+.

At any rate, now that you've heard me bitching I'd like to toss out my idea for a solution. I call it the shadowbank (because hey it's Shadowrun we can add Shadow to anything and it sounds cool). Basically the shadowbank exists as a purely metagame mechanic. The characters have no knowledge of it, and the players only have a rough idea of its balance. I track it for each PC behind the screen. Now for each 1000 nuyen that the PC earns they only get to see approximately 100 nuyen of it. The remainder goes in the shadowbank. After the shadowbank has reached a considerable balance, the player can request big ticket items from it, and I will find a way to give them the opportunity to get their hands on the item for free/cheap. Want a move by wire system? Well maybe that Yakuza Oyuban you just risked your life to save is grateful enough, that he is willing to fly you to Chiba all expenses paid and get you wired up in one of the best black-market cyber-clinics on the planet... Want a slick new ride? Hey that Mafia hitman you just assassinated had a Westwind parked out back, and the keys are in his pocket. Sure you'll need to scrub it for RFID tags and the like but that's a small price to pay. It also makes the cool toys that the PC's get their hands on have some narrative weight. That weapon foci is no longer just some piece of gear your physad picked out of the book. He took it from the cold dead hands of the the Yakuza ninja that he killed highlander style in a duel on a warehouse roof...

This also keeps the runners poor... If a run that would have used to have have paid them 20K now pays them 2000 suddenly financial management becomes a bigger issue. Burning through clips of EX explosive ammo or flinging grenades left and right will start having a significant impact on their bottom line. It lets you keep the game at a 'street' level without causing major issues balance wise.

By fiddling with the ratio you can even still reward players financially for jobs that might pay very little, or nothing at all. Maybe they would be willing to help out the squatters being attacked by ghouls in exchange for a hot meal and a place they can use as a bolthole in the future if they know that their shadowbank balance will still go up. Maybe the won't be quite so irate when the Yak Oyuban tells them "Do this gratis or I put a price on your head!" if they know they are still going to get something out of the deal.

You can even fiddle with it further and customize the ratio to each character. Spellslingers in Shadowrun are often perceived within the game world as being more 'valuable' than other archtypes. It comes up in the fluff all the time. Mages are also less likely to need to draw on the Shadowbank so it is entirely possible to up the mages cash to shadowbank ratio to 200/1000 to represent the fact that they command a higher price than a street sam.

Zilfer

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« Reply #1 on: <09-21-11/1440:36> »
Ok... one of the biggest challenges that Shadowrun GM's seem to come across is creating a Nuyen Karma balance when awarding PC's. We typically see topics on it every couple of weeks here. Award too much Nuyen and Street Sams get the short stick, too much cash and you'll see PC's blowing money on high lifestyles because unless you are a rigger or a street sam you've got nothing worthwhile to spend your cash on...

Not only that but big run payouts really limits who you can offer jobs from. If the PC's won't get out of bed for less than 20K each, then who the heck can afford to hire them? You're pretty much stuck with offering jobs from Corps and Organized Crime syndicates. Unless you totally handwave the funds that other people might have available there is zero grey area for the PC's to get hired by a squatter community being menaced by gangs, or a down on his luck reporter who needs paydata for a big scoop, or anything like that... Why would the PC's even do a run as a favor for a friend if it meant they were getting paid peanuts? Hand-waving it gets pretty ridiculous too. I remember the old adventure Dark Angel where the PC's were offered one million nuyen by DA's girlfriend... Seriously, the guy hadn't even released an album yet... How the heck was the girlfriend of a supposedly struggling rock start supposed to scrape that kind of money together?

Now I've mentioned on here several times in the past that the Nuyen Karma ratio that I've found works well is approximately 5000 nuyen for every karma. This means that by the time a mage has accumulated 20ish karma for an initiation, the Street Sam has about 100K to upgrade his ware with. For a long time I sort of left the ratio at this and was happy with it... it worked... sort of, but I ran into the second problem of there being too much cash floating around. I wanted my PC's to scrimp and save... worry about how they are going to make rent on next months low lifestyle, remind them that they are the underclass, subhuman trash, dreaming of the big score that could set them free and let them live the high life on some nice tropical island somewhere... It just didn't jive with the fact that after 4 or 5 runs their bank accounts would be sitting and 80,000+.

At any rate, now that you've heard me bitching I'd like to toss out my idea for a solution. I call it the shadowbank (because hey it's Shadowrun we can add Shadow to anything and it sounds cool). Basically the shadowbank exists as a purely metagame mechanic. The characters have no knowledge of it, and the players only have a rough idea of its balance. I track it for each PC behind the screen. Now for each 1000 nuyen that the PC earns they only get to see approximately 100 nuyen of it. The remainder goes in the shadowbank. After the shadowbank has reached a considerable balance, the player can request big ticket items from it, and I will find a way to give them the opportunity to get their hands on the item for free/cheap. Want a move by wire system? Well maybe that Yakuza Oyuban you just risked your life to save is grateful enough, that he is willing to fly you to Chiba all expenses paid and get you wired up in one of the best black-market cyber-clinics on the planet... Want a slick new ride? Hey that Mafia hitman you just assassinated had a Westwind parked out back, and the keys are in his pocket. Sure you'll need to scrub it for RFID tags and the like but that's a small price to pay. It also makes the cool toys that the PC's get their hands on have some narrative weight. That weapon foci is no longer just some piece of gear your physad picked out of the book. He took it from the cold dead hands of the the Yakuza ninja that he killed highlander style in a duel on a warehouse roof...

This also keeps the runners poor... If a run that would have used to have have paid them 20K now pays them 2000 suddenly financial management becomes a bigger issue. Burning through clips of EX explosive ammo or flinging grenades left and right will start having a significant impact on their bottom line. It lets you keep the game at a 'street' level without causing major issues balance wise.

By fiddling with the ratio you can even still reward players financially for jobs that might pay very little, or nothing at all. Maybe they would be willing to help out the squatters being attacked by ghouls in exchange for a hot meal and a place they can use as a bolthole in the future if they know that their shadowbank balance will still go up. Maybe the won't be quite so irate when the Yak Oyuban tells them "Do this gratis or I put a price on your head!" if they know they are still going to get something out of the deal.

You can even fiddle with it further and customize the ratio to each character. Spellslingers in Shadowrun are often perceived within the game world as being more 'valuable' than other archtypes. It comes up in the fluff all the time. Mages are also less likely to need to draw on the Shadowbank so it is entirely possible to up the mages cash to shadowbank ratio to 200/1000 to represent the fact that they command a higher price than a street sam.

I don't know about you but then i'd probably be scrouging bodies of killed enemies for ammo and the like. Supply some of my blackmarket buddies with corp armor for some extra cash. But yeah if you want them to be poor it works!

I haven't played enought or really notice an imbalance just yet.... <.<
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Mason

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« Reply #2 on: <09-21-11/2135:39> »
I like the idea, sorta, but it seems kind of formal. I just reduce all payouts across the board and make most of their pay come in the loot they can find, really. Which is pretty similar.

Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <09-22-11/0016:45> »
Ahhh this old dilemma!

I find that careful planning on my part (as a GM,) helps me control the cash-flow. How many runs WILL the team do this month? How much cash am I giving them each THIS MONTH?

What are their "out of lifestyle" expenses going to be? (read: bribes!)

What is the extra "loot" going to come out to be (given the parties last few "looting" attempts)

There is an ebb and flow to the shadows, some days they are hot. Some days they are cold. So sometimes, all that is available are peanuts.
 Also, what are the runner's reps like? Do they leave high body counts in their wake? Like to blow up city blocks when a car would do? These things matter in the shadows and reflects on them, and the work/pay offered!

And sometimes players do things that earns them "the big time" despite my best efforts. Then I roll with it as best I can. Taking comfort in the fact that nothing in SR is perminate, unless *I* say it is :D
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Mason

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« Reply #4 on: <09-22-11/1509:46> »
Generally if the runners get a really high payout, it was loud. If it is loud, they don't get work for awhile. Make them sit on their keisters working for peanuts a couple of months, so they pour some of that cash into lifestyle. Put bounties on their heads, and make them fade away for awhile. Nothing like the expense of hiring safehouses to drain their pockets a bit.

Kobold

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« Reply #5 on: <09-23-11/1029:08> »
too much cash and you'll see PC's blowing money on high lifestyles because unless you are a rigger or a street sam you've got nothing worthwhile to spend your cash on...

While reading this forum for a while I saw this statement a couple of times. May I ask why it is bad when players are spending their money on high lifestyles? In my opinion it would be the first thing to do, living the life of the rich. Then after realizing that it might extend your life expectancy comes the new ware...

And I second Masons post. I assume you want a grittier playstyle, that means a high payout equals a high risk. There should be a phase of lying low as well as the obligatory burning of SINs, second lifestyles (safehouses), bribes, etc.
Reducing the payment and the introduction of a shadowbank brings the usual GTA Problem: Why not just steal cars, as it is a steady and high paying income? And another question: Why be a criminal when working 20h per week earns you 2500 nuyen a month. For being a criminal I would expect to be able to finance a high lifestyle or at least a medium lifestyle with some high lifestyle options thrown in.

Mason

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« Reply #6 on: <09-23-11/1451:29> »
Yep. Lifestyle plus SINs plus new gear plus licenses for that gear tied into the multiple SINs plus ammo plus healing costs plus bribes to the local syndicates plus maintenance for implants (if you use that rule) etc etc.

plus spirit binding materials and ritual materials and spell formulae and Lodge materials for mages

Plus programs and maintenance of programs for hackers

Plus drones for anyone

Adepts, OTOH, seem to have it easy.

farothel

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« Reply #7 on: <09-24-11/0614:11> »
I don't know about you but then i'd probably be scrouging bodies of killed enemies for ammo and the like. Supply some of my blackmarket buddies with corp armor for some extra cash. But yeah if you want them to be poor it works!

I haven't played enought or really notice an imbalance just yet.... <.<

Or the mage/doc tells the street sams to aim for the head, so he can harvest the organs afterwards.  I've seen some players do that once and they made more of the organ trade than they did of the run.  Next run the GM made Lone Star respond a bit quicker than normal so they didn't have the time, but it was quite fun to see the runners show up with a refrigerator box.
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Phylos Fett

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« Reply #8 on: <09-24-11/0621:53> »
I don't know about you but then i'd probably be scrouging bodies of killed enemies for ammo and the like. Supply some of my blackmarket buddies with corp armor for some extra cash. But yeah if you want them to be poor it works!

I haven't played enought or really notice an imbalance just yet.... <.<

Or the mage/doc tells the street sams to aim for the head, so he can harvest the organs afterwards.  I've seen some players do that once and they made more of the organ trade than they did of the run.  Next run the GM made Lone Star respond a bit quicker than normal so they didn't have the time, but it was quite fun to see the runners show up with a refrigerator box.

The fools, cyberware is where the real money is!  :P

Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #9 on: <09-24-11/1518:09> »
Enforce things like addiction. If a character has a drug habit and it is a month between sessions make them buy a months worth of their drug of choice. This alone is keeping the mage in my group poor. So much so he is looking at spending karma to buy down his addiction (a mage is spending karma to save money :o) how about that as a dilemma for the player ;)

That and collateral damage works great. Have someone target the rigger's drones and he is spending money at least fixing them and maybe replacing them. If someone has a vehicle they bring on the meet or better yet run make it so hot that they have to dump it (or blow it up themselves).

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Joush

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« Reply #10 on: <09-25-11/0122:10> »
A good way to reduce money a bit is to burn one of their fake SIN.

A dead SIN means that they need to buy a new one (4 to 6 thousand for a reasonable rating.) and a new set of licenses, at the very least one so they can carry a weapon for self defense.

The idea of keeping track of how much you give them in pure cash vs how much you give them in free opportunities, equipment and other things isn't a bad one. A good idea for that kind of thing is ask the players to come up with a short "wish list" of things they'd like to have for their PC, then you can have Santa bring it to them if they are good boys. (Or let them come across it during a run, if your game is a touch too serious and dark to have presents delivered by a jolly elf.)

Phylos Fett

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« Reply #11 on: <09-25-11/0303:34> »
A good idea for that kind of thing is ask the players to come up with a short "wish list" of things they'd like to have for their PC, then you can have Santa bring it to them if they are good boys. (Or let them come across it during a run, if your game is a touch too serious and dark to have presents delivered by a jolly elf.)

I had players generate 3 versions of the same character at CharGen once - a 500 Karma Version, the standard 750 Karma Version, and a 1,000 Karma Version - the first had lower than normal availability, the second was normal, and the last was whatever they wanted. I told them I hadn't decided on the power level yet, but it was really an experiment to see what they would buy, and how they would advance over time.  8)

Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #12 on: <09-25-11/0754:08> »
I had players generate 3 versions of the same character at CharGen once - a 500 Karma Version, the standard 750 Karma Version, and a 1,000 Karma Version - the first had lower than normal availability, the second was normal, and the last was whatever they wanted. I told them I hadn't decided on the power level yet, but it was really an experiment to see what they would buy, and how they would advance over time.  8)
[/quote]

That is an interesting idea. It would work for gear most of the time. The only issue with what skills you might buy is I generally think ahead of what I think I will buy then in the course of playing realize that there are other things that are needed more so spend the karma on it instead. Kind of like the old saying "No plan survives contact with the enemy."
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Phylos Fett

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« Reply #13 on: <09-25-11/0901:14> »
Quote
I had players generate 3 versions of the same character at CharGen once - a 500 Karma Version, the standard 750 Karma Version, and a 1,000 Karma Version - the first had lower than normal availability, the second was normal, and the last was whatever they wanted. I told them I hadn't decided on the power level yet, but it was really an experiment to see what they would buy, and how they would advance over time.  8)

That is an interesting idea. It would work for gear most of the time. The only issue with what skills you might buy is I generally think ahead of what I think I will buy then in the course of playing realize that there are other things that are needed more so spend the karma on it instead. Kind of like the old saying "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

I have a friend that says "No enemy survives contact with the plan".

Zilfer

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« Reply #14 on: <09-26-11/1736:01> »
Quote
I had players generate 3 versions of the same character at CharGen once - a 500 Karma Version, the standard 750 Karma Version, and a 1,000 Karma Version - the first had lower than normal availability, the second was normal, and the last was whatever they wanted. I told them I hadn't decided on the power level yet, but it was really an experiment to see what they would buy, and how they would advance over time.  8)

That is an interesting idea. It would work for gear most of the time. The only issue with what skills you might buy is I generally think ahead of what I think I will buy then in the course of playing realize that there are other things that are needed more so spend the karma on it instead. Kind of like the old saying "No plan survives contact with the enemy."


I'd love to meet this friend of yours.... :D
I have a friend that says "No enemy survives contact with the plan".
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

 

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