[beowulf_of_wa]

hmmm, the question is: will this change anything about how i run SR?

answer: not likely

i like it gritty, punishing and mean.

[tzizimine]

Well, I know SR4 isn't that simple, in either case... some scenarios, you are always rounding up (like Unarmed Combat damage is Str/2, round up regardless of whose doing the hitting), where in others, you are always rounding down (like Drain code modifier is always Force / 2 round down).


I believe the intent is round up or down base on what is better for the person invoking the need for rounding in the first place, not necessarily the players.

[Zilfer]

Well, I know SR4 isn't that simple, in either case... some scenarios, you are always rounding up (like Unarmed Combat damage is Str/2, round up regardless of whose doing the hitting), where in others, you are always rounding down (like Drain code modifier is always Force / 2 round down).


I believe the intent is round up or down base on what is better for the person invoking the need for rounding in the first place, not necessarily the players.

Did not know that for the Str. Going to have to remember that one.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Cash for Karma -- the suggestions for it also recommend the GM add / subtract a random amount every time he allows the exchange -- if the base is roughly 1000¥ per point of karma, perhaps he sets it at 800¥ + (1d6 * 100¥) per point, or + 2d6 * 50¥.  Keeps the players from calculating just exactly how much Karma they can buy.

[Fizzygoo]

Getting players invested in the lives of their characters is key because it sets a base incentive that the players themselves have created for their characters. Case in point, I have 3 regular players (and one not-so-regular, and one that just joined in). Of the 3 regulars, 2 have no issues with finding things to do during downtime; the face/hacker has been learning Pilot: Ground Vehicles and writing his own programs to use and sell in the shadowmarkets, the mage is learning Arcana skill while searching for members to found a magical group that are also of his Hindi tradition. The Face/Hacker is the "best" example because he set up a clear hobby for his character. The mage is more nebulous and dependent on Karma as his plans are learn Arcana (karma cost), found magical group (karma cost), initiate (karma cost), and so on. So if the mage runs out of Karma then he's "done" until he earns more, while the Face/Hacker keeps on coding and mingling in the Matrix. But in the last couple of sessions the mage has also decided to date on of his contacts so that brings in "the relationship" angle which has no inherent Karma needs and can be used as a plot hook and/or source of information.

The 3rd regular player is tough. A 17 year old near-feral physad who had been kidnapped a few years ago from the Scottish wilds, taken to Seattle where she escaped and now lives in the shadows. There's little attachment to the modern world in general and Seattle in particular. Knowledge skills center mostly around Fey and Scotland. She decided to initiate but used the meditation/fasting ordeal which took a month...of her doing noting but meditating and fasting...in her house...alone. The player, on the other hand, is the most gregarious role-player of the group, he DM's his own game on a different night, and is the most thought-out and well planned player of the group. While he specifically decided to take a back seat so the other players could shine in the Shadowrun campaign, it's often obvious that he's bored during down time...which is partly his "fault" as he already knows what he wants to do, how to do it, and requires very little hand-holding. It's partly the other players' faults as they are more nebulous, do most of their rules-reading at the game table, and tend to have many many questions. And it's also partly my fault for not finding a better way to speed up the other two player's downtime rolls and conversations so that all three generally (over the long haul) average out to have equal time (can't always happen every session, but over many I hope to smooth things out).

But ultimately, having the characters have hobbies (running-related or not) is key.

As for the Karma for Cash, I've modified the older editions version to the following house rule:

----------
Karma for Cash (Fizzygoo House Rule)

Characters may permanently spend their Karma points to receive nuyen. The amount of nuyen a character receives per Karma point is dependent upon their Lifestyle rating (SR4A 267-268, or Runner's Companion 153).

Characters roll 3D6 and multiply that by their Lifestyle's modifier, listed below;

Lifestyle	Modifier
Street	x 10 nuyen
Squatter	x 25 nuyen
Low	x 100 nuyen
Middle	x 250 nuyen
High	x 500 nuyen
Luxury	x 5000 nuyen

Characters must use the Lifestyle level that they had prior to the start of the adventure for which they were awarded the karma. For example if a character with a Low Lifestyle finishes a run and uses their nuyen from that run to increase their Lifestyle to High, if they use Karma from that run for cash they must use their Low Lifestyle modifier. Only after their next run at High Lifestyle can they use the High Lifestyle modifier.

This money earned from Karma is generally assumed to be anything from payment from others for favors done or odd jobs to gambling wins to selling odd bits of paydata found while doing background non-run hacking to playing the stockmarket...all dependent on the character's over all Lifestyle.
----------

Note that my players have not used this yet so it may (probably will) require adjustments.

Hehe, Wyrm you and I are on the same wavelength here...keep 'em guessing

[beowulf_of_wa]

i think i'll end up using d20x50¥  for base  and 2d6x50¥ additional,
that makes the min they could have to sell karma for cash is 1 karma for 150¥ and the max is  1 karma for 1600¥.
and no rerolls or edge, just yes or no to the deal.

might have to make it a run just to meet the "person" that can do this deal for them.

[tzizimine]

I haven't had to use the Karma for Cash rule (or Cash for Karma rule) in any game I have run, mostly because I try to keep it around 1 Karma per 2,500 Y earned. However, the house rule I have played under went like this...


1. Only one transfer per month (either Karma for Cash or Cash for Karma) and it takes one week of downtime.
2. An in-game reason needs to be given for the transfer (gambling, lottery ticket, volunteering at a homeless shelter, a 'training' vacation).
3. Karma for Cash: Take the square root of the Karma spent, rounded down, times 2,500 Y
4. Cash for Karma: Take the cash spent, divide by 2,500 Y and then take the square root of the final amount, rounded down.
5. Roll Permanent Karma (SR3, TN: 5, it would now be Permanent Edge). If you get a glitch, the transfer goes through, but you are noticed (casino hounds, local newspapers, etc). On a critical glitch, the transfer does not go through and you are noticed.


This method prevented players for swapping back and forth (diminishing returns) and also prevent large amounts of swapping on the risk of failure. But it was still used for the 1 point that you were shy of raising something important or when you realized that you had no money for your Low-Lifestyle.

[All4BigGuns]

i'd prolly stick with the 2,500¥ per 1 karma to begin with, as i don't think karma should be easy to gain

though i might pull an exchange bank buy and sell rates concept
buy karma (2,500¥ each)
buy ¥ (1 karma gets you 1000¥)

fair? maybe
usable? if they choose to

remember folks: SR is definitely an "all things go against the player" / "round to the detriment of the player" sort of world

I think that going the opposite way, you should get a bit more nuyen than you'd spend going to karma, so if you do 2500 for 1 karma do 1 karma gets you 3000. You need more money to get good stuff than any karma cost.

That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.

[beowulf_of_wa]

That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.

except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.

[Tagz]

I haven't done it yet but may soon.

I plan to offer it via a powerful free spirit who is able to transfer the karma from one being to another.  Of course, him having the needed skill means he has all the negotiating power.

Buying karma is a 3000¥ per point, selling it will get the player 2000¥.  A spirit's got to make a living too after all, and I agree with Beowulf that it shouldn't be too good a deal for the players.  In the real world the one who has the power would set the terms, I don't see why it should be any different in a setting that empathizes that as a central theme.

And the nice thing about using a free spirit is that it's easy to control how often the players have access to it.

[JustADude]

That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.

except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.

I think you might be slightly missing the point, here.

Magicians can't touch much in the way of 'Ware or it screws them, big time, so they lose out on all the quick power boosts that the non-awakened characters. That means that by the time Sammie the Samurai is starting to browse the Betaware or Deltaware pages of the Sears Roebuck Catalog, so she can really start stacking the upgrades, Mac the Mage is running out of things to buy and pacing his penthouse apartment champing at the bit for more Karma so he can afford to bond his Force 6 Power Focus while spotting Sammie a loan for ¥20,000 because, hell, what else is he gonna do with it?

Sammie, on the other hand, has Karma to burn but is constantly broke and having to live in a leaky, abandoned warehouse while eating unflavored soy (not to mention hitting up her teammates for more funds) to buy her next mod, while spending her down-time (and Karma) getting her Underwater Basket Weaving to 6 because she's got everything she actually needs hard-capped.

The conversions aren't about being "attractive", they're about characters inevitably having "wasted" resources that they can't really use, either Nuyen or Karma, and giving them a way to put them to use so they can continue developing their characters at a fulfilling pace.

[All4BigGuns]

That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.

except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.

I think you might be slightly missing the point, here.

Magicians can't touch much in the way of 'Ware or it screws them, big time, so they lose out on all the quick power boosts that the non-awakened characters. That means that by the time Sammie the Samurai is starting to browse the Betaware or Deltaware pages of the Sears Roebuck Catalog, so she can really start stacking the upgrades, Mac the Mage is running out of things to buy and pacing his penthouse apartment champing at the bit for more Karma so he can afford to bond his Force 6 Power Focus while spotting Sammie a loan for ¥20,000 because, hell, what else is he gonna do with it?

Sammie, on the other hand, has Karma to burn but is constantly broke and having to live in a leaky, abandoned warehouse while eating unflavored soy (not to mention hitting up her teammates for more funds) to buy her next mod, while spending her down-time (and Karma) getting her Underwater Basket Weaving to 6 because she's got everything she actually needs hard-capped.

The conversions aren't about being "attractive", they're about characters inevitably having "wasted" resources that they can't really use, either Nuyen or Karma, and giving them a way to put them to use so they can continue developing their characters at a fulfilling pace.

Which is why I would use it in the first place, but Awakened parties would have to pay more nuyen because A: they'll have more nuyen because they don't need as much and B: to keep those Awakened badasses from getting too big too quick while giving the option to get that extra karma at a reasonable rate. (I think the 2500 or 3000 can work, but I'd probably go 2000 for Awakened)

On the flip side, since Sammies don't need as much karma, I'd probably let them cash in 1 karma for 2000.

[Crash_00]

I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.

[All4BigGuns]

I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.

Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.

Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.

Very true.  I would suggest that they should have a High lifestyle's worth of lifestyle costs.  Maybe he lives Low, but he's got dosses and hideaways all over town.  Maybe she has a zillion 'helpful roommates' she helps support, i.e. helps run an orphanage with Luxury size but Low everything else -- and 20 orphans to boot!!  It's the idea that they should already be spending the money at a moderately high rate ...